TEST - 9mm JHPs through Bone Simulant into Gel

This is a discussion on TEST - 9mm JHPs through Bone Simulant into Gel within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Ran across this the other day: http://www.brassfetcher.com/9x19mm J...nd Gelatin.pdf -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here is the "Summary" with emphasis added by me: Of the six brands tested, four ...

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Thread: test - 9mm JHPs through Bone Simulant into Gel

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    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    test - 9mm JHPs through Bone Simulant into Gel

    Ran across this the other day:

    http://www.brassfetcher.com/9x19mm J...nd Gelatin.pdf
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Here is the "Summary" with emphasis added by me:

    Of the six brands tested, four of the six ammunition types failed to expand in the bone plate/gelatin target. The Cor-Bon 115gr +P DPX and Federal 105gr EFMJ projectiles performed effectively, by functioning similarly through the bone plate as they did in bare gelatin...

    The wounding mechanism of a jacketed hollowpoint is the crushing of tissue through bullet expansion. Failing this, the lethality of a JHP is oftentimes lower than a full metal jacket which wounds through tumbling. FMJ bullet shapes lend themselves more readily to tumbling than a JHP that failed to expand – though many of the unexpanded JHPs did tumble, it was far too deep into the track to have influenced the lethality of the bullet to any extent.

    We recommend using the Cor-Bon 115gr +P DPX and Federal 105gr EFMJ if bullet expansion after a bone hit is a priority. It should be said that the human body consists of many different bones, with shapes other than flat, so these results should be considered as generally indicative of the performance that you can expect in an actual target. In any event, the bullets that failed in these tests will not perform better against living bone.


    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    It should be noted that the DPX did not get to the FBI desired level of 15 inches penetration after going through the bone simulant, though it did expand. It did meet the minimum of 12 inches.

    The 105 gr EFMJ (which I consider too light) did not get to the minimum of 12 inches in any of these test shots, so I personally disagree with the author's recommendation with regard to that load. I do carry the 124 gr +P EFMJ, though it seems impossible to find any more of it.

    These results do make you wonder about "premium" (and expensive) JHPs.

    Do the folks here agree that FMJ rounds are more apt to tumble (and sooner in the wound track) than unexpanded JHPs?

    ETA - Most folks say that "a JHP that fails to expand acts just like a FMJ, so what do you have to lose by using JHPs?" But - if what the authors say is true, you would actually be better off with FMJ (that tumbles) than an unexpanded JHP.

    I'm curious if these results match the real-world experience from those with medical trauma and/or handgun hunting experience.
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    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    This was the first time I have seen reference to a FMJ tumbling. By way of contrast, I read quite a bit about the .223 ammo used in guns like the FN57 which was specifically designed to tumble. In fact, in many of those articles it talks about how the bullet tumbles generating the wound, unlike a normal bullet.
    Edit: I have also read a lot of material that talks about real world data on over penetration on an FMJ, which seems to indicate that it passes through with energy to spare rather than tumbling.

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    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    DANG! Awesome! I just checked there a week ago - nothing. My wife is gonna kill me...
    Where do I send the flowers ... <g>
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    Welp,here we go again!

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    Huh.

    Well, I guess if I ever need to use JHP's against something with an exoskeleton, this test might have some bearing...
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    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
    Huh.

    Well, I guess if I ever need to use JHP's against something with an exoskeleton, this test might have some bearing...
    The bone simulant plate had a rubberized "skin" over it. Did you even read the report?

    I have read of many JHPs that fail to expand in actual shootings. This testing protocol might have more bearing on actual shootings than shooting into bare gel covered with nothing more than clothing layers. Note how much of the vitals are covered by protectant bone.

    If nothing else, it is certainly an interesting result.
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    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majorlk View Post
    Where do I send the flowers ... <g>
    She decided not to get mad, but to get even instead. This is gonna cost me a like sum in shoes and clothing. Ah well...

    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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    with all the clothes my wife has been buying.....I guess I got some stuff coming my way.....
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    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    The bone simulant plate had a rubberized "skin" over it. Did you even read the report?

    I have read of many JHPs that fail to expand in actual shootings. This testing protocol might have more bearing on actual shootings than shooting into bare gel covered with nothing more than clothing layers. Note how much of the vitals are covered by protectant bone.

    If nothing else, it is certainly an interesting result.
    I did.

    I guess I was wondering about minor things like the pectorals, and fat layers (whcih tend to get thicker on Americans all the time, or so I've heard).

    Also interesting on the ammo choices; no 147gr loads were tested. In fact, the only load that perfromed well was one that is often recommended--the DPX round. I wonder if other top-tier loads such as Ranger-T, HST, etc would perform as well.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

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    I'll stick with the 147 weight bullets pushed hard.
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    I am curious as to how they determined that the rounds that were not recovered failed to expand. While it may be a safe assumption that they did not expand it is still an assumption.
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    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
    I did.

    I guess I was wondering about minor things like the pectorals, and fat layers (whcih tend to get thicker on Americans all the time, or so I've heard).

    Also interesting on the ammo choices; no 147gr loads were tested. In fact, the only load that perfromed well was one that is often recommended--the DPX round. I wonder if other top-tier loads such as Ranger-T, HST, etc would perform as well.

    Ah - gotcha.

    Well, this test was just published. Maybe they will test other brands/loads/bullet weights in the future.

    As far as fat layers go, I know my own tends to be lower on the abdomen - not so much in front of the vitals in the upper torso.
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    I'm just going to keep sticking to the Speer gold dot 124+p that I have. I've tried a bunch of different stuff, all of it pricey. But one thing I do notice is that the premium stuff shoots better... more accurate, cleaner, etc. I've had some FTEs with FMJ of various brands.

    Ammo that shoots reliably and penetrate the BG adequately is more important to me than whether or not all the points on the round flared out every time.

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