.223 As A Defense Round

This is a discussion on .223 As A Defense Round within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The AR of today is not the AR of 1965. Same goes for the bullet. A 55 FMJ from a 14.5 (M-4) barrel will fragment ...

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Thread: .223 As A Defense Round

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array 40Bob's Avatar
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    The AR of today is not the AR of 1965. Same goes for the bullet. A 55 FMJ from a 14.5 (M-4) barrel will fragment with 75 yards from the muzzle with a 20" Barrel extend that to 125 yards. Soft point bullets do not require the high velocity to be effective. The reason they fragment is that the 55 FMJ becomes unstable in liquid (human) and begins to yaw at about 3" of penetration, at 6" to 8" it is sideways, if the velocity is high enough it will break at the cannalure and fragment causing a devastating wound.

    The 223 will do its part if you do yours within its performance envelope. I still prefer 62-64 GRN soft points. The 77 grain bullets work very well in 1:7 twist barrels for longer distance, the marines use it to good effect. but for up close I think I would stick with a lighter/faster bullet.

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  3. #32
    Distinguished Member Array onacoma's Avatar
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    I have a differing opinion on the .223/5.56mm and mine is based on the following:

    1. Using a M-16 to defend myself and others around me when we had 7.62mm X 39 coming at us!
    2. The PA shoot out in 2006 were the BG took 11 5.56mm round and keap on firing. (attached)
    3. The May 20, 2011 Pima County SWAT action that had the good, the bad, and the ugly of the 5.56mm! Good - they hit their target with 60 rounds, The Bad - they fired 71 rounds, and the Ugly - it took that ex-marine 15 to 20 minutes to bleed out and die after being hit 60 times!

    I won't own a .223/5.56mm AR platform. I do own a 6.8mm and a 7.62 AR platform.

    I liken it to propounding that the 5.7mm X 28 is the best pistol round BAR NONE!

    Again for CQ I like a shotgun (In my home night stand is the Judge in my closet is a 12ga), for open area and distance either the 6.8mm out to 200 yds or the 7.62mm out to 600 yds.

    Of course if I'm attacked by a Mad Coyote, hell a .380 LCP will do the job if you're in Texas!

    Again just my opinion
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  4. #33
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    Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

    We can find ONE instance of pretty much any event we can imagine - that doesn't mean that ALL instances (or most, or many, or any other one) will happen the same way. Just sayin'.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array rammerjammer's Avatar
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    I don't have much experience with the .223 but I have one good story.

    My father brother and myself were out shooting at steel spinner targets. The target was reported to be able to handle magnum calibers and up to 30-06. Our pistol calibers were working just fine until we backed up and shot our rifles and carbines. I told my brother to shoot at my spinner target and after he was done shooting the AR I went up to reset other targets and replace paper targets. There were many holes going through my spinner target so that proved to me the effectiveness of that .223 round.
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  6. #35
    VIP Member Array 40Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onacoma View Post
    I have a differing opinion on the .223/5.56mm and mine is based on the following:

    1. Using a M-16 to defend myself and others around me when we had 7.62mm X 39 coming at us!
    2. The PA shoot out in 2006 were the BG took 11 5.56mm round and keap on firing. (attached)
    3. The May 20, 2011 Pima County SWAT action that had the good, the bad, and the ugly of the 5.56mm! Good - they hit their target with 60 rounds, The Bad - they fired 71 rounds, and the Ugly - it took that ex-marine 15 to 20 minutes to bleed out and die after being hit 60 times!
    Don't take this the wrong way, butt......

    Your argument for number 1 has been there since Vietnam and the adoption of the 5.56 cartridge.
    Number 2, it was the 223 that ended the fight, multiple hits, ok, he was hit in the foot.
    I am not familiar with number 3 but, shot placement?

  7. #36
    Distinguished Member Array shadowwalker's Avatar
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    I guess I will throw this into the mix, as a Deputy back in the late 60s in Idaho and keeping in touch with Fish and Game we were aware that poachers weapon of choice was a 22lr. They not only took deer but Elk also cougar and bear, there is a show on at present called Swamp People and they take Gators and I agree shot placement but we all have our input

  8. #37
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onacoma View Post
    I have a differing opinion on the .223/5.56mm and mine is based on the following:

    1. Using a M-16 to defend myself and others around me when we had 7.62mm X 39 coming at us!
    2. The PA shoot out in 2006 were the BG took 11 5.56mm round and keap on firing. (attached)
    3. The May 20, 2011 Pima County SWAT action that had the good, the bad, and the ugly of the 5.56mm! Good - they hit their target with 60 rounds, The Bad - they fired 71 rounds, and the Ugly - it took that ex-marine 15 to 20 minutes to bleed out and die after being hit 60 times!

    I won't own a .223/5.56mm AR platform. I do own a 6.8mm and a 7.62 AR platform.

    I liken it to propounding that the 5.7mm X 28 is the best pistol round BAR NONE!

    Again for CQ I like a shotgun (In my home night stand is the Judge in my closet is a 12ga), for open area and distance either the 6.8mm out to 200 yds or the 7.62mm out to 600 yds.

    Of course if I'm attacked by a Mad Coyote, hell a .380 LCP will do the job if you're in Texas!

    Again just my opinion
    1. 55 gr. FMJ from the 60's is NOT the 77 gr. Mk262 Mod1 of today.

    2. Determined attackers can soak up a lot of pain if they aren't hit in vital areas; we've known this for a very long time.

    3. You aren't even close on this one, you're not even in the right ballpark.

    a) The SWAT team entered with handguns, as you can clearly see in the video of the event through both sight and sound.

    b) The former Marine was hit 22 times, not 60 times......................

    c) If CNS isn't disrupted, and the heart isn't hit, you can live for a very long time.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  9. #38
    RKM
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    You could shoot somebody 12 times rapidly with .338 before they actually go down and die and say it took 12 hits of .338 to kill him. Truth is, the first shot or two probably did it.

  10. #39
    Distinguished Member Array onacoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    Don't take this the wrong way, butt......

    Your argument for number 1 has been there since Vietnam and the adoption of the 5.56 cartridge.
    Number 2, it was the 223 that ended the fight, multiple hits, ok, he was hit in the foot.
    I am not familiar with number 3 but, shot placement?
    Granted my personal experience is dated, however Bob you didn't read the FBI attachment, they stated the .223/5.56mm round DID NOT end the gunfight and failed to meet FBI standards. What ended the gunfight was one officer hit the BG with a 40 S & W in the arm breaking it so he could reload. He then bled out.

    Again, I perfer a round which I know I won't have to wait for 15 minutes for the vermin to bleed out. JMHO!


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  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post

    3. You aren't even close on this one, you're not even in the right ballpark.

    a) The SWAT team entered with handguns, as you can clearly see in the video of the event through both sight and sound.

    b) The former Marine was hit 22 times, not 60 times......................

    c) If CNS isn't disrupted, and the heart isn't hit, you can live for a very long time.
    AZ I think SWAT team used both pistol and carbine in this event. Please look at the video again. The oficers did fire 71 rounds according to everthing I've seen. As for the 60 hit on target I was going from memory as to what was first reported. Now the ratio is 22 to 71 or a 31% hit ratio. I need to stock up on ammo becasue I know I not as good as these guy who train daily!

    Video link: SWAT Team's Fatal Raid of Ariz. Marine - Videos - POLICE Magazine


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  12. #41
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    We used the round in the military, and it worked. I have absolutely no qualms about using my AR for home defense. I've seen--first hand--the effectiveness of the round.

  13. #42
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  14. #43
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onacoma View Post
    AZ I think SWAT team used both pistol and carbine in this event. Please look at the video again. The oficers did fire 71 rounds according to everthing I've seen. As for the 60 hit on target I was going from memory as to what was first reported. Now the ratio is 22 to 71 or a 31% hit ratio. I need to stock up on ammo becasue I know I not as good as these guy who train daily!

    Video link: SWAT Team's Fatal Raid of Ariz. Marine - Videos - POLICE Magazine
    There is one man standing in the vicinity with a rifle. The team in the doorway were all armed with Glock 22 .40 caliber handguns, which is why ALL the shots fired sound exactly the same. In my experience, there is quite a bit of difference in the sound of a rifle being fired and a handgun being fired.

    You are correct, they did fire 71 rounds, but only 22 rounds hit their intended target.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  15. #44
    Distinguished Member Array onacoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    There is one man standing in the vicinity with a rifle. The team in the doorway were all armed with Glock 22 .40 caliber handguns, which is why ALL the shots fired sound exactly the same. In my experience, there is quite a bit of difference in the sound of a rifle being fired and a handgun being fired.

    You are correct, they did fire 71 rounds, but only 22 rounds hit their intended target.
    After a review, I still can tell for sure that they all used pistols. But I'll defer for now until we get a final lesson learned fom the event.


    In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm and three or more is a congress. -- John Adams

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  16. #45
    Distinguished Member Array onacoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    There is one man standing in the vicinity with a rifle. The team in the doorway were all armed with Glock 22 .40 caliber handguns, which is why ALL the shots fired sound exactly the same. In my experience, there is quite a bit of difference in the sound of a rifle being fired and a handgun being fired.

    You are correct, they did fire 71 rounds, but only 22 rounds hit their intended target.
    Well Hawk I'm goning to have to eat some of that Humble Pie! After one of the SWAT team I working with made some inquires, I have agree that the team used 40 S & W on the breaching in Tuscon.

    Just shows to go you that what you see may not be what happened!

    Hit 22 times with a 40 S & W and still lived 15 minutes, that is unsettling.


    In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm and three or more is a congress. -- John Adams

    If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's free! -- P.J. O'Rourke

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