This is a discussion on Potent New Buffalo Bore .38 Special Loading within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by a__l__a__n My point was simply that the LSWC-HP is no longer the recommended ammunition of the FBI. And that doesn't pass their ...
"Platt attempted to start the Grogan/Dove car. Mireles drew his .357 Magnum revolver, moved parallel to the street and then directly toward Platt and Matix. Mireles fired six rounds at the suspects. The first round missed, hitting the back of the front seat. The second hit the driver's side window post and fragmented, with one small piece hitting Platt in the scalp. The third hit Matix in the face, and fragmented in two, with neither piece causing a serious wound. The fourth hit Matix in the face next to his right eye socket, travelled downward through the facial bones, into the neck, where it entered the spinal column and severed the spinal cord. The fifth hit Matix in the face, penetrated the jaw bone and neck and came to rest by the spinal column. Mireles reached the driver's side door, extended his revolver through the window, and fired his sixth shot at Platt. The bullet penetrated Platt's chest and bruised the spinal cord, ending the gunfight".
Agent Mireles S&W Model 13 .357 magnum revolver was loaded with the .38 special 158 grain +p LSWHP the approved duty load for revolvers carried by the FBI at the time.
I was fortunate enough to be at a training seminar in 1994 and listened to Agent Mireles give his first hand acount of the incident.
We in LE who carried revolvers in South Florida during the 80's (and that was the vast majority of us) refered to the .38 Special 158 grain +p LSWCHP as the "Miami Load".
The cops in Chicago called it the "Chicago Load".
It was and continues to be a load that works and works well for the caliber.
"Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".
"A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves".
In the 1950's they were putting out non-+P 38 Special ammo that was putting out 364 ft-lbs of energy , now the best +P load puts out 287 ft-lbs !
With most folks using 357 Mag handguns, why don't they come out with an old school 38 load ? The reason they toned it down so much is people were trying to shoot the "Police Positive load" in snubbies. This plus the advent of the 357 Mag reduced the 38 Special round to what we know it today. Even in the 70's though the 38 Special was still hotter than todays variety. There used to be Semi wadcutter and lead round nose in +P loads both 158 gr. +P+ loads were also available well into the 90's.
So what happened ? There's nothing inbetween the powerful 357 Mag loads and the soft 38 Special loads. Why isn't there any 158 gr at 1100 fps ? This would be a good start ! 125 gr at 1200 fps. This would be the max a steel, service sized, 38 special revolver could handle with no problems. I'd be happy if 1100 fps was the cutoff, it would be a hell of a lot better than what exists ! One of the ammo companies has got to revive this once treasured round ?
Outlaw Guns and Only Outlaws Will Have Guns !!
I haven't based any of my opinions on any interpretation of the Miami shootout. A lot has happened since then -- a lot of incidents, a lot of testing, a lot of engineering. We know more now than we knew then. We still don't know enough.
Choosing a bullet is kind of like playing the roulette table. You have many choices on how to place your bets. You can put all your money on a single number coming up. If you win, you win big... but you'll usually lose. Or you can put all your money on red. You'll win almost half the time, but you'll lose in the long run because the house always wins in the end. You can hedge your bets by placing some money on different combinations. You give up some of the big win potential but you still have the potential to come out ahead on a given spin.
The same is true with bullet selection. You can place your bets on deep penetration -- but it might pass straight through without stopping the BG. Or you can place your bets on maximum expansion, which might not penetrate deep enough to reach vital organs. Or you can hedge your bets by going for a combination of penetration and expansion. That improves your chances of a "win" but you probably are trading some penetration for some expansion. What is the best tradeoff? You can't know in advance. It all depends on exactly how things go down.
The difference between the roulette table and ammo choice is that everyone can know precisely what the odds are for any bet in roulette. We don't know that about the bullets. Not even close.
The FBI test protocol is currently hedging bets, requiring a certain amount of penetration and a certain amount of expansion, through a variety of barriers. Is it the right set of tests? Who knows? There probably isn't one "right" set of tests, but the FBI test not an unreasonable criterion.
I think we've made progress in this discussion. It has become clear that the difference of opinion really comes down to whether the FBI tests are the best criterion for choosing a bullet for self defense. You can certainly argue with it. Different people will have different opinions.
Man there is a ton of good information by people who know their #### in this thread! THanks!
Back to the orignal round in question! I don't think cost really matters for this round? It would be carried in the woods or outdoors and only used in the worst possible scenario! Its not like you are going to be shooting it at the range much? Two boxes might be all you ever buy?
So would this be the closest equivalent for semi-autos?
9mm Luger +P +P+ Pistol and Handgun Bullets Pistol and Handgun Bullets
Others may (and probably do) feel differently.
An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein