Exotic ammo vs the jury

This is a discussion on Exotic ammo vs the jury within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by WillyNilly Why is that? This demo seems pretty conclusive. RBCD Demo Shoot - YouTube Any "demo" that can't even correctly spell the ...

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Thread: Exotic ammo vs the jury

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WillyNilly View Post
    Why is that? This demo seems pretty conclusive.

    RBCD Demo Shoot - YouTube
    Any "demo" that can't even correctly spell the name of the ammunition being tested against is suspect to begin with. There's no such ammo as "Hydro Shock." The ammo is Federal's Hydra-Shok. As for the testing, I prefer to look at the professional testing organizations than some gun store's tests. I am unaware of any professional testing that recommends RBCD for SD use. Just my opinion, of course.

    And the Extreme Shock is almost laughable in that no one takes it seriously.
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by WillyNilly View Post
    Why is that? This demo seems pretty conclusive.

    RBCD Demo Shoot - YouTube

    Slabs of clay don't generally commit assault so what conclusion may really be drawn from the video?
    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array tokerblue's Avatar
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    I think what everyone is trying to say is... Why go with exotic ammunition when there are well documented tests on readily available JHP ammunition?

    Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo
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  5. #19
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ring View Post
    Exactly.

    "Congress appropriated $1,050,000.00 in the FY03 budget for the government to conduct a comprehensive study of LeMas “BMT” ammunition and evaluate the remarkable claims made by LeMas. A 3 year, multi-agency testing effort was conducted and the results compiled and documented. The long awaited USSOCOM/ARDEC report on LeMas ammo was made available for distribution to authorized organizations in August of 2007. Virtually every single claim made by Mr. Bulmer and Mr. Hamilton regarding LeMas bullet design, manufacture, construction methodology and composition, pyrophoric and thermodynamic properties, behavior in tissue simulant, intermediate barrier capability, terminal performance in tissue were all determined to be FALSE. Hopefully this will put to rest any residual doubts about the fraudulent nature of LeMas "BMT". Note that the USSOCOM/ARDEC report validates ALL the information we have released publicly to date above."

    - Dr. Roberts
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  6. #20
    Member Array Bear2's Avatar
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    Well, I guess I missed the boat re carry ammo.. I carry a 642 in a Galco Pocket holster and practice with WW White box 38 special for the range, but carry Buffalo Bore 158gr +P LSWCHP, on the trail in all fife chanbers all have five rounds. this was the concencis load for every day carry in the field. For self defense on another site re this subject.
    Now according to recent puplications, (Buffallo Bore is now marketing aflat nose 38 Special fMax load Short barrell) 1100fpc
    or carry and defensein the field specially for snub nose rervolvers, and get 1000fps from a 2" barrel,with Keith hard core bullertys Because of the speed enev 158+P, the BB158+ Outdoorsnan and aman on the inside
    Check one a new coat

  7. #21
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bear2 View Post
    Well, I guess I missed the boat re carry ammo.. I carry a 642 in a Galco Pocket holster and practice with WW White box 38 special for the range, but carry Buffalo Bore 158gr +P LSWCHP, on the trail in all fife chanbers all have five rounds. this was the concencis load for every day carry in the field. For self defense on another site re this subject.
    Now according to recent puplications, (Buffallo Bore is now marketing aflat nose 38 Special fMax load Short barrell) 1100fpc
    or carry and defensein the field specially for snub nose rervolvers, and get 1000fps from a 2" barrel,with Keith hard core bullertys Because of the speed enev 158+P, the BB158+ Outdoorsnan and aman on the inside
    Check one a new coat
    Wrong thread?
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  8. #22
    Member Array TommyGun4169's Avatar
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    Most people on a jury don't know guns or ammo. A friend of mine used his gun in self defense. It was a 357 Magnum loaded with 38 Special. Well when the DA asked what kind of gun he used and he answered 357 Magnum the jury had that OMG look on their face and you heard the word, "Magnum" uttered by the jury as if it was a dirty word ! They didn't know or care about that he had it loaded with 38 special {an old Police round}, all they heard was Magnum. Eventually he did beat the case but his choice of weapon almost got him sent up the river ! You say magnum and the first thing folks think of is Dirty Harry or Elephant Rifles ! Bullets are the same. This is why Black Talons don't exist anymore and they changed the name to Ranger -T series. I guess Glaser "Safety Slug" might help, if people are that nieve ? Gold Dot and Golden Sabre are iffy ? Hi-Shok, Hydra-Shok, Extreme Shock, Power Ball, are all going to be deemed killer bullets by the ignorant. Caliber too is judged ! If you have a 45 anything they are going to say your aim was to kill ! Magnum anything, same thing ! 9mm, 38 Special, 40 S&W, and Believe it or not 22 LR will be your best bet. Me personally, I'll stick to my 45 ACP for carry and 357 Mag for home defense. Yea I also carry 9mm, and 40 S&W. I hope that day never comes but if it does, im not going to be thinking of what caliber im carrying. Im going to be thinking about protecting my family and myself !

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  9. #23
    Senior Member Array IAm_Not_Lost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TommyGun4169 View Post
    Most people on a jury don't know guns or ammo. A friend of mine used his gun in self defense. It was a 357 Magnum loaded with 38 Special. Well when the DA asked what kind of gun he used and he answered 357 Magnum the jury had that OMG look on their face and you heard the word, "Magnum" uttered by the jury as if it was a dirty word ! They didn't know or care about that he had it loaded with 38 special {an old Police round}, all they heard was Magnum. Eventually he did beat the case but his choice of weapon almost got him sent up the river ! You say magnum and the first thing folks think of is Dirty Harry or Elephant Rifles ! Bullets are the same. This is why Black Talons don't exist anymore and they changed the name to Ranger -T series. I guess Glaser "Safety Slug" might help, if people are that nieve ? Gold Dot and Golden Sabre are iffy ? Hi-Shok, Hydra-Shok, Extreme Shock, Power Ball, are all going to be deemed killer bullets by the ignorant. Caliber too is judged ! If you have a 45 anything they are going to say your aim was to kill ! Magnum anything, same thing ! 9mm, 38 Special, 40 S&W, and Believe it or not 22 LR will be your best bet. Me personally, I'll stick to my 45 ACP for carry and 357 Mag for home defense. Yea I also carry 9mm, and 40 S&W. I hope that day never comes but if it does, im not going to be thinking of what caliber im carrying. Im going to be thinking about protecting my family and myself !
    Whether or not the jury is educated on guns and ammo is not my concern. My concern is for the moment when I actually need to use my EDC gun, and the Ranger T 147gr that it's loaded with. I will deal with a jury if I have too, feeling good about the fact that I am alive and god willing my family is safe. If our country is at the point where they will condemn a man because his caliber or ammo has a sinister sounding name, then so be it.
    bmcgilvray and Majorlk like this.
    "Brilliant. So now we got a huge guy theory, and a serial crusher theory. Top notch. What's your name?" - Paul Smecker

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    I think it's such an insignificant thing to be concerned about, that people who worry about it are barking up the wrong tree.

    Before you get to ammo, you have to examine a lot of other factors first:

    The shooter's decision making process RE: A-I-O;
    Subjective-Objective justification;
    The shooter's reasonable belief of the above;
    Shooter's information which lead to that belief;
    Applicable law and cases in that state;
    Statements, if any by the shooter, witnesses or the shootee;

    Much more, and all before you ever, ever get to anything like ammo.

    Sorry to say about your friend, but if he was on trial for a shooting, something went BAD before they started looking at ammo.

  11. #25
    Member Array TommyGun4169's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IAm_Not_Lost View Post
    Whether or not the jury is educated on guns and ammo is not my concern. My concern is for the moment when I actually need to use my EDC gun, and the Ranger T 147gr that it's loaded with. I will deal with a jury if I have too, feeling good about the fact that I am alive and god willing my family is safe. If our country is at the point where they will condemn a man because his caliber or ammo has a sinister sounding name, then so be it.
    I don't like it every much as you don't ! In fact, I think it's ridiculous, but here in Filthadelphia it will be used in a trial. Would it be on my mind if my life or my families life was threatened, not at all ! That's the chance we all take . I just told you like it is ! A Jury here's the word Magnum mentioned and they all get this look on their face as if someone raped a 5 year old ! You sure as hell know they are not going to be picking many gun enthusiasts for that trial ! In Philly, assume the worst !

    Outlaw Guns and Only Outlaws Will Have Guns !!

  12. #26
    Member Array gunsnroses's Avatar
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    Ammo is way too technical for me. If its JHP and its on sale...thats what I shoot and carry.

  13. #27
    Member Array WillyNilly's Avatar
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    Right now I have WWB 147 HPs in my PF9. I also have Hydra-Shoks and PDX1 +Ps both 124 and I think I'll keep them in the drawer. The jury don't need to hear about 'em.

  14. #28
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WillyNilly View Post
    What do you think of ammo like RBCD or Extreme Shock?

    What will the jury think?

    I was watching demos of RBCD ammo and they're pretty devastating but are we supposed to stop the BG and not kill 'em?

    I read so many articles on self defense that I'm conflicted, kill or not kill. Duh.
    The jury? Think of thick, dried out bread with baloney and beans, some barbeque sauce and a hint of cornbread made without cornmeal.
    Truth? The jury won't be there to think for you at the time you make it or break it. A jury won't have to think about you at all once you're dead. Why would you be worried about the jury before you die?
    Kill or be killed.........what conflict? When you are worried about something it only means one thing (you're still alive). Pretty simple. Jail is cold, a courtroom is warm. Conflict within yourself? Only tell your attorney things like that while contemplating a plea of reduced mental capacity. Comprende?

  15. #29
    Member Array TommyGun4169's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod View Post
    The jury? Think of thick, dried out bread with baloney and beans, some barbeque sauce and a hint of cornbread made without cornmeal.
    Truth? The jury won't be there to think for you at the time you make it or break it. A jury won't have to think about you at all once you're dead. Why would you be worried about the jury before you die?
    Kill or be killed.........what conflict? When you are worried about something it only means one thing (you're still alive). Pretty simple. Jail is cold, a courtroom is warm. Conflict within yourself? Only tell your attorney things like that while contemplating a plea of reduced mental capacity. Comprende?
    Even Police tell you if someone breaks into your home and your going to shoot them, kill them ! Dead men tell no tales has truth to it !
    If you leave them alive they could testify against you in court ! They could even sue for damages, that's how screwed up the law is !
    Someone breaks into my house in the middle of the night, they die plain and simple as that !

    Outlaw Guns and Only Outlaws Will Have Guns !!

  16. #30
    New Member Array Tx_CHL's Avatar
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    Exotic vs Jury

    I have used RBCD to hunt hogs and Deer with, I know it works. Yes I had a lot of tissue damage, but it does exactly what it is supposed to do. Stop without over penetration.
    You can find "Experts" to argue both sides. Go with what works and helps protect you from 3rd party accidents. We do not have to use our guns like police or military, we have to stop attackers as fast and as responsible as possable. Police and Military may have to shoot longer distance, through walls etc... We would be held accountable for such shots.

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