Good story on the relative importance of accuracy vs caliber

Good story on the relative importance of accuracy vs caliber

This is a discussion on Good story on the relative importance of accuracy vs caliber within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Range Accident Reveals .45 Stopping Power. Or Not. | The Truth About Guns...

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Thread: Good story on the relative importance of accuracy vs caliber

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    Senior Member Array bklynboy's Avatar
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    Good story on the relative importance of accuracy vs caliber



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    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    1. What was the "hard case" made out of?
    2. How far away was the boy?
    3. What are the effects on velocity when a gun is unsupported?
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    Member Array TommyGun4169's Avatar
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    You can't rate any caliber in a situation like that ! The pistol wasn't held, it was in a hard case, and the kid got hit in the fattiest part of his body.
    Plenty of criminals were gunned down by a 45 acp and it only took one shot in most cases. That kid is just lucky ! A well placed shot with a 32 or 45 is going to have the same result, death !

    Outlaw Guns and Only Outlaws Will Have Guns !!

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    Senior Member Array IAm_Not_Lost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TommyGun4169 View Post
    You can't rate any caliber in a situation like that ! The pistol wasn't held, it was in a hard case, and the kid got hit in the fattiest part of his body.
    Plenty of criminals were gunned down by a 45 acp and it only took one shot in most cases. That kid is just lucky ! A well placed shot with a 32 or 45 is going to have the same result, death !
    Sums it up pretty much.
    I feel like this point doesn't need to be made by "The Truth About Guns". Being shot in the gut by any caliber is rarely fatal (with prompt medical attention), unless an artery is hit. No caliber is Zeus' Lighting Bolt, any caliber will do the job quickly if you hit someone in their cns, and/or anywhere that large amounts of blood passes through. Larger calibers or effective HP's simply give you a better chance of doing that, end of story.
    "Brilliant. So now we got a huge guy theory, and a serial crusher theory. Top notch. What's your name?" - Paul Smecker

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    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TommyGun4169 View Post
    You can't rate any caliber in a situation like that ! The pistol wasn't held, it was in a hard case, and the kid got hit in the fattiest part of his body.
    Plenty of criminals were gunned down by a 45 acp and it only took one shot in most cases. That kid is just lucky ! A well placed shot with a 32 or 45 is going to have the same result, death !
    1. Why does the pistol need to be held? A bullet will exit the muzzle before the slide begins to move backwards. If not, it'd pretty darn hard to shoot a pistol where you are aiming it. And if it was in a case, it likely wasn't 100% unsupported. I mean it didn't "fly out of the case," right?

    2. The "hard case" is likely the same case the gun came in, so it was likely nothing more than thin plastic. Besides, most bullets usually affected by plastic "barriers."

    3. The kid did get hit in the fattiest part of his body, but the bullet still only penetrated six inches or so.

    What did I get from this?

    Silvertips still suck, stick with the heavier .45 ACP loads unless it's the 185 gr. +P COR-BON DPX, and don't aim for the "meaty" parts on the body.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

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    So much for the inherent safety of a 1911.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    1. Why does the pistol need to be held? A bullet will exit the muzzle before the slide begins to move backwards. If not, it'd pretty darn hard to shoot a pistol where you are aiming it. And if it was in a case, it likely wasn't 100% unsupported. I mean it didn't "fly out of the case," right?

    2. The "hard case" is likely the same case the gun came in, so it was likely nothing more than thin plastic. Besides, most bullets usually affected by plastic "barriers."

    3. The kid did get hit in the fattiest part of his body, but the bullet still only penetrated six inches or so.

    What did I get from this?

    Silvertips still suck, stick with the heavier .45 ACP loads unless it's the 185 gr. +P COR-BON DPX, and don't aim for the "meaty" parts on the body.
    1. The force needed to move the gun rearward will detract from the velocity. Basic physics.
    2.You don't know, could have been a "pelican" style case.
    3.Were you in the O.R. ?

    Silvertips probably do suck.

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    Father claims that he manually ‘decocked’ the pistol (on a live round) prior to putting it away.
    Stupid father!!!

    He further claims that when he closed and case, the pistol discharged while still inside.
    Don't believe a word of it. I'll bet the idiot father was holding it in his hand when he "manually decocked" the pistol. The only way you can do this with a 1911 is to pull the trigger whole lowering the hammer - can you say "the hammer slipped from under his thumb?"
    Last edited by Majorlk; November 24th, 2011 at 09:42 PM.
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    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    If you want an effective gun, at minimum carry a 12 GA shotgun loaded with 2 3/4 inch #1 buckshot or a 5.56mm rifle.

    Anything you use in the service caliber range is carried because it is convenient, not effective.

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    So much for the inherent safety of a 1911.
    Unless it was a clone with no grip safety, or the grip safety had been defeated, the incident, as described, is impossible.
    Eaglebeak likes this.
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    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    1. The force needed to move the gun rearward will detract from the velocity. Basic physics.
    2.You don't know, could have been a "pelican" style case.
    3.Were you in the O.R. ?

    Silvertips probably do suck.
    1. Hmm, so your "basic physics" covers the positive explosion of a projectile which weighs less than 1% of the total mass of the object it's being exploded from, specifically in regards to positive or negative changes in acceleration based on whether the object is supported or not? How interesting. If you'd care to explain to us how exactly your version of "basic physics" works, I'm sure we'd all be in your debt.

    2. Sorry, I wasn't aware that 2 mm of regular plastic affected bullets more than steel car doors and laminated auto glass. And if the gun was in a case, it was somewhat supported.

    3. I don't need to be in the O.R. to know how much fat needs to be penetrated to reach an organ on an overweight kid. Had the bullet penetrated more than six or seven inches and penetrated an organ, he wouldn't have just been sitting around like nothing happened. That much I know for sure.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

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    "… Father claims that he manually ‘decocked’ the pistol (on a live round) prior to putting it away. He further claims that when he closed and case, the pistol discharged while still inside…", I do not believe it at all.

    Check this video:
    Mythbusters - Bullets exploding inside an oven - YouTube
    "The Second Amendment: America's Original Homeland Security"

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    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    1. Hmm, so your "basic physics" covers the positive explosion of a projectile which weighs less than 1% of the total mass of the object it's being exploded from, specifically in regards to positive or negative changes in acceleration based on whether the object is supported or not? How interesting. If you'd care to explain to us how exactly your version of "basic physics" works, I'm sure we'd all be in your debt.

    2. Sorry, I wasn't aware that 2 mm of regular plastic affected bullets more than steel car doors and laminated auto glass. And if the gun was in a case, it was somewhat supported.

    3. I don't need to be in the O.R. to know how much fat needs to be penetrated to reach an organ on an overweight kid. Had the bullet penetrated more than six or seven inches and penetrated an organ, he wouldn't have just been sitting around like nothing happened. That much I know for sure.
    1. Google Newton's Laws of motion. Don't suppose that everyone needs to be taught them just because you don't seem to know them.
    2. Pelican cases are typically mad from aluminum.
    3. I will concede to your apparent knowledge of the anatomy of overweight kids.

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    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    1. Google Newton's Laws of motion. Don't suppose that everyone needs to be taught them just because you don't seem to know them.
    2. Pelican cases are typically mad from aluminum.
    3. I will concede to your apparent knowledge of the anatomy of overweight kids.
    1. I should have told you Newton's laws of motion don't apply how you obviously think they apply in this case due to the mass of the firearm being much greater than the mass of the bullet, but I thought that was obvious, i.e., the bullet leaves the muzzle before the slide begins to cycle due to it's high speed and low mass in comparison to the much heavier slide, therefore it does not matter whether or not the gun is supported.

    Go to 1:20 - Bullets and Guns: Amazing Slow Motion Video - YouTube

    2. Pelican cases made for laptops are aluminum, but that's pretty much it. The medium sized Pelican cases with the foam in them that people such as myself use for travel are made out of plastic. This is the exact Pelican case I and many others use to travel with firearms: Pelican*Products*1470*Case

    3. 1/3 of American children are overweight, and 1/5 are obese. You've never met one?
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

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    Member Array Siddhartha's Avatar
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    Robert Farago is a thief, a liar and a troll feeder. He has been called on his B.S. quite a few times. I am surprised that people actually still read his blog. Sorry don't mean to sound so crass, but the truth hurts. I lost complete respect for him when he stated having anti-gun blogger Mikeb302000 write for him. There are a plethora of great progun blogs and podcasts out there which are much more informative than TTAG.
    “Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.” Han Solo

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