Hornady VS Gold Dot?

This is a discussion on Hornady VS Gold Dot? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This is where you really need to consider your self defense scenarios. I'm much more likely to need to shoot through heavy clothing than a ...

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Thread: Hornady VS Gold Dot?

  1. #16
    Member Array snakyjake's Avatar
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    This is where you really need to consider your self defense scenarios. I'm much more likely to need to shoot through heavy clothing than a hard barrier. LE has different probable scenarios than most civilians (I don't do traffic stops, and I can't use offensive tactics). I read the news in my area and I learn what the most probable situations are.

    My opinions below are mostly based on Hornady's documentation...

    If you choose Gold Dot (or similiar) you lose:
    Reliable expansion (hollow point are known to fail when passing through heavy clothing).
    More flash.
    Less reliable feeding.
    And something lost regarding short barrels (not sure how "short" is defined).

    With Gold Dot (or similar), you only gain hard barrier penetration.

    Do you want to trade reliable heavy clothing expansion for hard barrier penetration? If so, go Gold Dot.

    Other considerations should be Corbon DPX and Hornady Critical Duty.

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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array SFury's Avatar
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    I use Hornady's FTX LEVERevolution ammo. It's basically a heavier version of their CD line. It's been a proven effective round for hunting which means it should be fine for most SD scenarios. No ammo will ever be the right round 100% of the time after all.

    We just need to find one that we believe in, and that not only feeds reliably, but shoots consistently out of the firearm. It's a proven fact that some guns like certain ammo brands/weights more than others. Some guns like it all. Use your firearm, and find what works for you.

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snakyjake View Post
    This is where you really need to consider your self defense scenarios. I'm much more likely to need to shoot through heavy clothing than a hard barrier. LE has different probable scenarios than most civilians (I don't do traffic stops, and I can't use offensive tactics). I read the news in my area and I learn what the most probable situations are.

    My opinions below are mostly based on Hornady's documentation...

    If you choose Gold Dot (or similiar) you lose:
    Reliable expansion (hollow point are known to fail when passing through heavy clothing).
    More flash.
    Less reliable feeding.
    And something lost regarding short barrels (not sure how "short" is defined).

    With Gold Dot (or similar), you only gain hard barrier penetration.

    Do you want to trade reliable heavy clothing expansion for hard barrier penetration? If so, go Gold Dot.

    Other considerations should be Corbon DPX and Hornady Critical Duty.
    Gold Dot is as reliable at expansion (if not more so) through barriers as CD.

    Don't beleive all of Hornady's advertising hype.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snakyjake View Post
    This is where you really need to consider your self defense scenarios. I'm much more likely to need to shoot through heavy clothing than a hard barrier. LE has different probable scenarios than most civilians (I don't do traffic stops, and I can't use offensive tactics). I read the news in my area and I learn what the most probable situations are.

    My opinions below are mostly based on Hornady's documentation...

    If you choose Gold Dot (or similiar) you lose:
    Reliable expansion (hollow point are known to fail when passing through heavy clothing).
    More flash.
    Less reliable feeding.
    And something lost regarding short barrels (not sure how "short" is defined).

    With Gold Dot (or similar), you only gain hard barrier penetration.

    Do you want to trade reliable heavy clothing expansion for hard barrier penetration? If so, go Gold Dot.

    Other considerations should be Corbon DPX and Hornady Critical Duty.
    Not trying to put you down or insult you, but I really dont think you know what you are talking about. My guess is you are just repeating what you have read. Because if you had been in this thing for a while, you would not have made some of those comments, which are completely untrue.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array zeppelin03's Avatar
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    I wouldn't base anything off of manufacturers information.

  7. #21
    Senior Member Array IAm_Not_Lost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Not trying to put you down or insult you, but I really dont think you know what you are talking about. My guess is you are just repeating what you have read. Because if you had been in this thing for a while, you would not have made some of those comments, which are completely untrue.
    Thank you.

    At least Hornady's new "Duty" line offers a middle class weight instead of only offering as light as possible for the given caliber like "Critical Defense" did.
    "Brilliant. So now we got a huge guy theory, and a serial crusher theory. Top notch. What's your name?" - Paul Smecker

  8. #22
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Not trying to put you down or insult you, but I really dont think you know what you are talking about. My guess is you are just repeating what you have read. Because if you had been in this thing for a while, you would not have made some of those comments, which are completely untrue.
    Agreed.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  9. #23
    Member Array snakyjake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Not trying to put you down or insult you, but I really dont think you know what you are talking about. My guess is you are just repeating what you have read. Because if you had been in this thing for a while, you would not have made some of those comments, which are completely untrue.
    As my post is qualified in saying "based on Hornady's documentation", so no offense taken.

    But, I've also seen similar comments about Corbon DPX and other threads regarding expansion failure or core separation or fragmentation. I also wonder how much of the bullet is popular because of LE use. But I also understand LE have different criteria and compromises. As a civilian, my situations and compromises can be different.

    For example, Critical Defense is for "short" barrels. So I've wondered what that really means? What is Gold Dot performance out of short barrel? How bad is +P and muzzle flash? What's the velocity on those heavier bullets? What about the pistols that can't shoot +P?

    I've also seen testing on JHP failures, core separation, and failure to expand when clogged. So I'm looking for a better bullet, and that's why I'm interested in Critical Defense, Critical Duty, and Corbon DPX.

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.

    The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:

    9 mm:
    Barnes XPB 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
    Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
    Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3)
    Remington Golden Saber 124 gr +P JHP bonded (GSB9MMD)
    Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
    Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
    Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
    Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
    Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
    Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
    Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
    Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
    Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
    Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)

    .40 S&W:
    Barnes XPB 155 gr JHP (copper bullet)
    Speer Gold Dot 155 gr JHP
    Federal Tactical 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
    Winchester Ranger-T 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
    Winchester Partition Gold 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
    Federal HST 180 gr JHP (P40HST1)
    Federal Tactical 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
    Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
    Speer Gold Dot 180 gr JHP
    Winchester Ranger-T 180 gr JHP (RA40T)
    Winchester 180 gr bonded JHP (RA40B/Q4355/S40SWPDB1)

    .45 ACP:
    Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
    Federal HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2)
    Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
    Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
    Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP
    Speer Gold Dot 230 gr +P JHP
    Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
    Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)

    Notes:
    -- Obviously, clone loads using the same bullet at the same velocity work equally well (ie. Black Hills ammo using Gold Dot bullets, Corbon loads using Barnes XPB bullets, etc…)

    -- Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 15 or 20 years ago. These older bullets tend to plug up and act like FMJ projectiles when shot through heavy clothing; they also often have significant degradation in terminal performance after first passing through intermediate barriers. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's.

    Thoughts on Service Pistols, along with Duty and Self-Defense Ammo Recommendations - M4Carbine.net Forums
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  11. #25
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snakyjake View Post
    But, I've also seen similar comments about Corbon DPX and other threads regarding expansion failure or core separation or fragmentation. I also wonder how much of the bullet is popular because of LE use. But I also understand LE have different criteria and compromises. As a civilian, my situations and compromises can be different.
    Barnes TAC-XP bullets, loaded by COR-BON as DPX, have no cores to separate from. The bullet is solid copper. I've never seen one fragment, either.

    Why do you feel your situations will be totally different than LE? Isn't the end result still the same, i.e., shooting a BG?

    Quote Originally Posted by snakyjake View Post
    For example, Critical Defense is for "short" barrels. So I've wondered what that really means? What is Gold Dot performance out of short barrel? How bad is +P and muzzle flash? What's the velocity on those heavier bullets? What about the pistols that can't shoot +P?
    1. A "short barrel" is 3.0" or shorter. There is little change in performance of SD ammo in barrels 3.5" to 4.5."

    2. Maybe you need to be a little more specific...? Speer has a load called "Gold Dot Short Barrel" which is designed to expand at the lower velocities you find in short barrel handguns.

    3. Once again, specificity would be great here, as I don't know of any modern autoloading pistols which cannot shoot +P loads.

    Quote Originally Posted by snakyjake View Post
    I've also seen testing on JHP failures, core separation, and failure to expand when clogged. So I'm looking for a better bullet, and that's why I'm interested in Critical Defense, Critical Duty, and Corbon DPX.
    Read my post above.
    --------------------------

    Dr. Roberts -

    The keys are:

    -- Cultivate a warrior mindset
    -- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
    -- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
    -- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Personally, I really don't have a problem with any of the major manufactures of quality JHP 9mm ammo, as long as it's the heavy stuff.

    I find the HD CD stuff good for for what it was designed for, but once it's needed beyond that realm of design, I believe it will suffer in areas where the other designs excel. Barrier penetration is one of um for me. I'm sorry, but if I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the guy behind the door is intent on killing me or one of my loved ones. I want to reach out and touch him first and with results.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." – Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." – Thomas Jefferson

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I think any HP design, no matter how modern, has a potential to collect debris from clothing on impact. This matter is of little consequence to me. My primary concern is penetration to the point of my aim.

    We stress too much about these things. Bullets of round, lead solid construction have been putting people down long before we were thought of. I give you Lee Harvey Oswald and John Lennon as examples. Truly by the worry and debate on these issues, neither of these two should have been killed by the ammo used of those days.

    I submit that even the worst ammo I can imagine, light for caliber bullets such as 110 and 115 weight HP designs in the 38spl and 9mm, can do the job. With today's modern autoloaders, it is a simple matter of pulling the trigger in a quick manner until the issue is resolved. There is no need to wait and see the effects of the first shot, if they were worth one, they are worth 5.

    The matter of which is better is best answered by what is important to the user. For me, that is reliable penetration to perforate organs, regardless of shot angle.

    I can see little value in spending more money on ammo marketed for a situation that has little relevance in reality as marketed by HCD. But, even it will probably work if needed. However, it is best to not find out it doesn't when you need it. So, I stick with those that have been proven.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  14. #28
    Distinguished Member Array onacoma's Avatar
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    First let me state I would not like to be shot with anything inculding the frozen paint balls my grandkids use in their games!

    Now I'm one who shoots Winchester T-Series in 9mm +P $ +P+ as well as 357 Sig. I also carry SGD in +P and DT 147 gr in 357 Sig thanks to the guy with the Pet Attack Elephant.

    Hornady Critical Defense has not received the testing, i.e., "Real Life" experience that I would trust mine or my family's life with at this time. To state that as a non-LE you would never need the LE proven ammunition is extremely short sighted! The last I check there are still Car Jackings, BGs in a drug induced state, and psychos walking into IHOP with AK-47s and shooting people!

    Please note one real life test in Penn in 2006 showed that Hornady's .223 ammo did not perform as advertised according to the FBI. Again SGD & Ranger have shown to perform in real life.


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  15. #29
    Member Array snakyjake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    Barnes TAC-XP bullets, loaded by COR-BON as DPX, have no cores to separate from. The bullet is solid copper. I've never seen one fragment, either.
    Yes, that is why I'm converting to Corbon DPX. Plus less muzzle flash (which I haven't experimented with, but sounds like a bonus feature). But I still wonder about the DPX hollow point becoming clogged, hence Critical Defense/Duty.

    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    Why do you feel your situations will be totally different than LE? Isn't the end result still the same, i.e., shooting a BG?
    The odds of me shooting through glass or sheet metal is unlikely. Instead of me finding the optimum bullet for a slim situation, I'd rather find the optimum bullet for a more likely situation, the highest reliability going through heavy clothing and bone; while offering low recoil and flash, and other characteristics. This is why I think DPX is ideal. Perhaps Critical Duty or Critical Defense is better, but I haven't seen enough tests to convince me.

  16. #30
    Senior Member Array IAm_Not_Lost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snakyjake View Post
    The odds of me shooting through glass or sheet metal is unlikely. Instead of me finding the optimum bullet for a slim situation, I'd rather find the optimum bullet for a more likely situation, the highest reliability going through heavy clothing and bone; while offering low recoil and flash, and other characteristics.
    Let me ask you something. If you were a breaking into someones home, and suddenly the owner pops out of his room with a gun, what do you think you would do? I'll answer that for you. You would jump behind the nearest sturdy object and regroup. Now you have a barrier to shoot through. Do you think you and the BG are going to stand there in the dueling position and face off?

    Carry something that will have you prepared for all situations. I think if you chose the DPX line it would serve you well, but so would heavier rounds.
    "Brilliant. So now we got a huge guy theory, and a serial crusher theory. Top notch. What's your name?" - Paul Smecker

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