Hornady VS Gold Dot?

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Originally Posted by snakyjake

Yes, that is why I'm converting to Corbon DPX. Plus less muzzle flash (which I haven't experimented with, but sounds like a bonus feature). But I still wonder about the DPX hollow point becoming clogged, hence Critical Defense/Duty.

The odds of me shooting through glass or sheet metal is unlikely. Instead of me finding the optimum bullet for a slim situation, I'd rather find the optimum bullet for a more likely situation, the highest reliability going through heavy clothing and bone; while offering low recoil and flash, and other characteristics. This is why I think DPX is ideal. Perhaps Critical Duty or Critical Defense is better, but I haven't seen enough tests to convince me.

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First, you really need to get this through your head: there is no such thing as an "optimum bullet."

Second, you want a bullet that can reliably penetrate barriers if those barriers are called bones, but you don't care if it can penetrate reliably through any barriers which are not bones? Do you see the contradiction here?

You said, "Perhaps Critical Duty or Critical Defense is better, but I haven't seen enough tests to convince me."

Another contradiction. Why assume the CD loads are better without any supporting evidence? Just because Hornady claims that putting a rubber tip in the hollow point cavity will prevent the bullet from clogging doesn't make it so. Then, why assume the Barnes TAC-XP bullet will clog just because it has a hollow point cavity? Do you have any proof of this, or are you just speculating?

Are you getting my drift here? All you have to support CD is speculation, so it makes me wonder why you are assuming so much with so little supporting evidence.

Once again, I'll leave you with this:

Dr. Robert's keys -

The keys are:

-- Cultivate a warrior mindset
-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.

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I'm comfortable with 115 gr. +P COR-BON DPX, 124 gr. +P Speer Gold Dot and 147 gr./147 gr. +P Federal HST in 9mm.

Why?

Because they are all proven reliable through the FBI testing protocol, and more importantly, they are all 100% reliable in my EDC Glock 19.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, the Critical Duty could be an excellent choice, but I haven't seen any testing to verify that or, well, anything at all.

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Originally Posted by IAm_Not_Lost

Let me ask you something. If you were a breaking into someones home, and suddenly the owner pops out of his room with a gun, what do you think you would do? I'll answer that for you. You would jump behind the nearest sturdy object and regroup. Now you have a barrier to shoot through. Do you think you and the BG are going to stand there in the dueling position and face off?

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My "home" is not Defensive Carry. Threats are met with a shotgun at my home. On the street I have a handgun. From the police reports I read in my area, defensive shootings haven't involved windows, shooting through walls, or shooting through cars. The shootings are face to face, no obstacles but what the person is wearing.

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Originally Posted by AZ Hawk

First, you really need to get this through your head: there is no such thing as an "optimum bullet."

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You don't think manufacturers and hand loaders optimize their loads or bullets for their situation? I'd like to think they can, and they do.

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Originally Posted by AZ Hawk

Second, you want a bullet that can reliably penetrate barriers if those barriers are called bones, but you don't care if it can penetrate reliably through any barriers which are not bones? Do you see the contradiction here?

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If there was a bone barrier test, then I'd care. Since there isn't, I care about jacket separation, fragmentation, and expansion. This is why I like DPX.

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Originally Posted by AZ Hawk

Why assume the CD loads are better without any supporting evidence? Just because Hornady claims that putting a rubber tip in the hollow point cavity will prevent the bullet from clogging doesn't make it so.

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I qualified my statement with "perhaps", which doesn't mean I assume. But I am intrigued with the design of the rubber tip and want to see more proof before I replace my DPX.

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Originally Posted by AZ Hawk

why assume the Barnes TAC-XP bullet will clog just because it has a hollow point cavity? Do you have any proof of this, or are you just speculating?

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I haven't knocked DPX at all....that's why I have repeatedly said that's what I carry.

But getting back to the OP, I'm more concerned about Gold Dot not expanding through heavy clothing reliably than shooting through unlikely hard barriers. That's why Hornady and Corbon have my interest. Corbon DPX is my top choice because I think it does everything Critical Defense does, plus more.

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Originally Posted by snakyjake

[1]You don't think manufacturers and hand loaders optimize their loads or bullets for their situation? I'd like to think they can, and they do.



[2]If there was a bone barrier test, then I'd care. Since there isn't, I care about jacket separation, fragmentation, and expansion. This is why I like DPX.



[3]I qualified my statement with "perhaps", which doesn't mean I assume. But I am intrigued with the design of the rubber tip and want to see more proof before I replace my DPX.



[4]I haven't knocked DPX at all....that's why I have repeatedly said that's what I carry.

[5]But getting back to the OP, I'm more concerned about Gold Dot not expanding through heavy clothing reliably than shooting through unlikely hard barriers. That's why Hornady and Corbon have my interest. Corbon DPX is my top choice because I think it does everything Critical Defense does, plus more.

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1. Optimize how? It's a bullet...

2. There's a kinda sorta bone test done by Brass Fetcher out there. http://www.brassfetcher.com/9x19mm%2...%20Gelatin.pdf

3. I wouldn't replace DPX (Barnes TAC-XP) with anything. In my opinion, it is the single best bullet available, and I carry the DPX loading by COR-BON in my Glock 19, and the SDX loading by ASYM in my Glock 36.

4. My apologies, I misread one of your earlier statements in which I thought you were referring to the DPX when speaking of bullet failure by clogged HP cavity.

5. Where have you seen the Gold Dot "not expanding through heavy clothing reliably?"

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Originally Posted by glockman10mm

I think any HP design, no matter how modern, has a potential to collect debris from clothing on impact. This matter is of little consequence to me. My primary concern is penetration to the point of my aim.

We stress too much about these things. Bullets of round, lead solid construction have been putting people down long before we were thought of. I give you Lee Harvey Oswald and John Lennon as examples. Truly by the worry and debate on these issues, neither of these two should have been killed by the ammo used of those days.

I submit that even the worst ammo I can imagine, light for caliber bullets such as 110 and 115 weight HP designs in the 38spl and 9mm, can do the job. With today's modern autoloaders, it is a simple matter of pulling the trigger in a quick manner until the issue is resolved. There is no need to wait and see the effects of the first shot, if they were worth one, they are worth 5.

The matter of which is better is best answered by what is important to the user. For me, that is reliable penetration to perforate organs, regardless of shot angle.

I can see little value in spending more money on ammo marketed for a situation that has little relevance in reality as marketed by HCD. But, even it will probably work if needed. However, it is best to not find out it doesn't when you need it. So, I stick with those that have been proven.

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To carry this line of thought even farther, there are alot of people that claim that a 22 is not a good choice. Tony "the Ant" Spilotro, a famous mafia hit man and heavy was believed to have been committed as many as 22 murders. His favorite weapon, 22 caliber revolver. Granted he didn't neccesaily want a one shot stop, maybe sometimes he actually wanted them to suffer and require more than one shot.
As noted, no one wants to get shot with anything, even a pebble from a sling shot.

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Originally Posted by TedBeau

To carry this line of thought even farther, there are alot of people that claim that a 22 is not a good choice. Tony "the Ant" Spilotro, a famous mafia hit man and heavy was believed to have been committed as many as 22 murders. His favorite weapon, 22 caliber revolver. Granted he didn't neccesaily want a one shot stop, maybe sometimes he actually wanted them to suffer and require more than one shot.
As noted, no one wants to get shot with anything, even a pebble from a sling shot.

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What's funny about what you just said is something you said a few months ago below.

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Originally Posted by TedBeau

Here's a little info on the 22, from the Mob Tour in Vegas. The tour focuses mostly on Tony "The Ant" Spilotro. His weapon of choice was a 22 revolver. The way the tour guide tells it, supposidly one time he was going to do a hit on a snitch and his associate removed some of the powder from the bullets because they were going to kill the guy in a subdivison and didn't want to attract attention. Tony chases the guy into the kitchen and empty's the gun into him. He's still alive so Tony has to beat him to death with the gun.

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.22 is not, and never will be, a good choice for SD.

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Originally Posted by TedBeau

To carry this line of thought even farther, there are alot of people that claim that a 22 is not a good choice. Tony "the Ant" Spilotro, a famous mafia hit man and heavy was believed to have been committed as many as 22 murders. His favorite weapon, 22 caliber revolver. Granted he didn't neccesaily want a one shot stop, maybe sometimes he actually wanted them to suffer and require more than one shot.
As noted, no one wants to get shot with anything, even a pebble from a sling shot.

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I would say there is a big difference between an execution and a self-defense situation where someone is trying to kill you. Just my opinion.

Jim

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Originally Posted by AZ Hawk

Optimize how? It's a bullet...

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I have a bunch of hollow point bullets. They all have different designs, and some are different weight, with different grain, bonding, or different velocity. I like comparing Gold Dot to DPX and HST.

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Originally Posted by AZ Hawk

Where have you seen the Gold Dot "not expanding through heavy clothing reliably?"

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I want to make sure you noticed my qualification of "concerned about Gold Dot not expanding through heavy clothing reliably". My concern comes from seeing jacket bullets not perform reliably (as DPX). Thanks for the BrassFetcher link. It is another good example of my concern.

I haven't seen a test where DPX "concerns" me, and that's why I like carrying it.

Just go with DPX and call it good. Please. I have never seen a DPX round fail to expand, and that's including personal tests. Sometime they aren't always perfect, but they always blossom to some extent. So go get a bunch of rounds and don't look back.

Greetings all,,
I'm new to this forum and found it when doing a search on holsters. I find this thread very interesting. I thought I would share
a link to a guy on youtube that has done testing (in my case, I came across this when searching 45cal ballistic tests).. He
has several videos that I found interesting and his method was better than just shooting into ballistics gel. He shoots through a jacket, a t-shirt, a side of ribs, into ballistics gel, and backs it up with a box of phone books. The results are cool to see.
I was interested in the HCD, Speer gold dot, and the Golden Sabre since I have both the HCD and the Golden Sabre.
I wish he had one on the Corbon DPX copper,, after reading up on it, and hearing some of your thoughts on it, I would like to see
how it compares.
Thanks for all the good info and opinions,
Cheers,
Lefty
jeffr168's Channel - YouTube

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Originally Posted by IAm_Not_Lost

Just go with DPX and call it good. Please. I have never seen a DPX round fail to expand, and that's including personal tests. Sometime they aren't always perfect, but they always blossom to some extent. So go get a bunch of rounds and don't look back.

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This. ^

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Originally Posted by AZ Hawk

This. ^

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Yup.. they're at the top of my shopping list :smile:

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Originally Posted by GentlemanJim

Hornady has a new line out. It is called "Critical Duty".

I haven't seen any tests but I assume it is designed to meet the FBI standards.

Jim

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Go to Hornady's website, products, click the round to see the details. At the bottom will show you test results.

Thanks, I checked out the website and it looks like none of the ammo listed with the exception of the non +P .38 special and the .45 acp loads through heavy clothing meets the FBI's 12 inch minimum. They still do OK but I would like to see what they do through wall board, plywood, steel, and glass.

They also chose some odd barrel lengths to use for their tests 3 inches for the .40 and .45 and 8 inches for the .357 magnum.

I think they are using some smoke and mirrors here. Maybe the marketing guys have more pull at Hornady than the engineers.

Doesn't look real promising.

Thanks again.

Jim

HD Critical Duty penetrates more than 12 inches in the FBI tests.

Hornady Critical Duty 9MM LUGER+P 135 gr

Bare 14.0" 0.581" 99.6%
Heavy Clothing 15.0" 0.517" 99.3%
Sheet Metal 14.5" 0.506" 98.4%
Wall Board 13.0" 0.592" 100%
Plywood 14.75" 0.520" 99.6%
Glass 14.75" 0.437" 69.6%