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I've gone through a few different kinds of defensive ammo... that was before I started reading posts about ammo. I've got Hornady Critical Defense, Hornady TAP, and Speer Gold Dot 124+p loaded into my current carry mags. Yeah, I know. Kind of scattered. I should just shoot off all the HCD. It seems too light to do much. I do like the feel of the TAP rounds. Does anyone have stats on that stuff?
Kind of weird to me that the Hornady rounds are physically shorter than the Speer Gold Dot.
Where did you get those test results?Quote:
Originally Posted by snakyjake
I looked all over the website and all I found for Critical Duty 9mm was this:
Hornady : Law Enforcement | Products | 9MM LUGER FTX™ - 9MM LUGER 115 gr. FTX™ CRITICAL DEFENSE®
Wait a minute...those results are for Critical Defense FTX. Is that the same as Critical Duty or have I got this all mixed up?
Jim
Please see post #43.Quote:
Originally Posted by GentlemanJim
Two different products and optimized purposes: Critical Defense and Critical Duty.Quote:
Originally Posted by GentlemanJim
Critical Defense is designed for:
Quote:
Concealed-carry handguns are generally short-barreled, compact and lightweight, resulting in significant recoil and muzzle flip and blast. “We wanted to try to optimize ammunition to provide good terminal performance without excessive muzzle blast, flash or recoil in these types of firearms"
I'd still like to see a comparison of Gold Dot 9mm 124gr +P vs. CD out of short barrels. But also remembering that each of us interpret recoil and flash different.Quote:
FTX technology provides 100-percent-reliable and consistent expansion and lowers the velocity threshold at which the bullet will expand.” This was especially apparent in low-velocity cartridges such as the .380 ACP and .38 Spl.—the chamberings of many compact, lightweight semiautomatic pistols and short-barreled revolvers that shooters of smaller-stature, and women in particular, favor.
Alright, I finally found it.
Honestly the numbers for all three of those rounds are about as good as it gets.
The penetration after going through laminated glass is better than most I've seen. I hope independent testing validates Hornady's numbers. They are much better than Critical Defense in my opinion.
Jim
"Better" than what? I haven't seen results of Critical Duty (Or Gold Dot 124gr +P) from a less than 3" barrel (if it exists, please provide link/data). How about the recoil difference? How about muzzle flash tests?Quote:
Originally Posted by GentlemanJim
Or how about the fact that +P ammunition cannot be used in Ruger's LCP?
Like I've said, Critical Defense was designed different for a different set of compromises: short barrels, small guns, flash and recoil sensitive shooters.
Yeah.
I'd just like to point out that those figures of Critical Duty are from the same folks who claim the Critical Defense bullet expands 100% of the time.
In short, I don't believe them, and I won't until the performance claims are verified by an independent and credible source--not some yootoob yahoo shooting his latest concoction of "ballistic medium".
According to Hornady, Critical Duty isn't designed for barrels under 3," and the ammo hasn't been made public yet, so the chances that any independent testing has been done are slim to none.Quote:
Originally Posted by snakyjake
Based on kinetic energy, the Critical Duty loads are all full power loads, and they will have recoil similar to other full power loads.
As for muzzle flash, it depends on the type(s) of powders they use.
Who cares that +P ammunition can't be used in the LCP? SAAMI doesn't have a specification for +P in .380 ACP anyways...
Have a great day!Quote:
Originally Posted by snakyjake
Jim
Yup, that's what Critical Defense is for. But people like to think Gold Dot 124gr +P is so great, that it should also be put into short barrels and lightweight firearms.Quote:
Originally Posted by AZ Hawk
"The Ruger LCP was not designed for use with +P ammunition. Given the LCP's light weight and compact design, the use of +P ammunition in this particular model may result in damage to the firearm or personal injury."Quote:
Originally Posted by AZ Hawk
@GentlemanJim
Are you sure your Winchester PDX performs better than Critical Defense out of your 1.875" barrel; Or are you presuming the service pistols used in the FBI protocols equal the ballistics of a 1.875" barrel?
Reminds me of shooting .45 ACP out of those 3" 1911's....very poor ballistics. Same with 357 out of the short barrels; excessive flash, sound, and recoil, with no advantage over +P.
Speer has a special Gold Dot called "Gold Dot Short Barrel" which is specifically designed for short barrels. The weight of the firearm has absolutely nothing to do with anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by snakyjake
You've missed my point... Of course the LCP wasn't designed for +P ammo. There is NO SUCH THING as .380 ACP +P according to SAAMI. It's hard to design a firearm for something that technically doesn't exist, right? I'm not sure why you even brought up the LCP. :confused:
38 Super Auto Plus P 125gr DPX | COR®BON/Glaser Self Defense | Dakota AmmoQuote:
Originally Posted by AZ Hawk
Lightweight typically means the components can't handle the stress or everything is smaller. Also can mean there's more recoil and flip.Quote:
Originally Posted by AZ Hawk
Yup, just like Critical Defense, though this is where the design may give an advantage to CD. When ammo is made for the shorter barrel, there's a compromise, and that's why I think CD might be better. Like to see more testing, but when in doubt I lean towards design.Quote:
Originally Posted by AZ Hawk
You may want to rethink that. .38 Super =/= .380 ACPQuote:
Originally Posted by snakyjake
Not really... For example, Glocks are lightweight and use plastic guide rods which can handle about as much stress as you want to throw at them.Quote:
Originally Posted by snakyjake
Eh, I'll stick with the Barnes TAC-XP in any barrel length.Quote:
Originally Posted by snakyjake
A friend of mine was at a Winchester sponsored gel shoot and one of the officers got to shoot his 642 loaded with PDX-1. These are the results of the shoot:Quote:
Originally Posted by snakyjake
Cloth test:
.38 - 886fps/13 1/4" pen/.53" exp
127gr +P+ - 1203fps/12"/.63"
147gr - 927fps/14"/.58"
Drywall:
.38 - 891fps/10 3/4"/.53"
127gr +P+ - 1199fps/11 1/4"/.59"
147gr - 925fps/13"/.52"
Laminated Auto Glass:
.38 - No vel reading/7 3/4"/.52"
127gr +P+ - 1196fps/7 1/4"/.51"
147gr - 939fps/9"/.47"
Disclaimer: Of course on a different day with ammo from a different lot number the results might not be the same.
Jim
Ok. Here's another try: BUFFALO-BARNES LEAD-FREE .380 Auto +P Ammo. Including from Magtech, and Grizzly too. But to your real point, these are exceptions. To my real point, short barrels might not gain anything by +P ammo, and I haven't see any tests between +P and CD out of short barrels.Quote:
Originally Posted by AZ Hawk
I quoted what the manufacturer said. If they manufacturer doesn't feel confident their firearm will handle +P, I believe them.Quote:
Originally Posted by AZ Hawk
Not disagreeing. My point is that you can't compare ammo designed for short firearms with ammo designed for service length. And the subject I really want to know more about is how often does the bullet fail (expand, separate, fragment) for compact/sub firearms?Quote:
Originally Posted by AZ Hawk