Hornady VS Gold Dot?

This is a discussion on Hornady VS Gold Dot? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I've gone through a few different kinds of defensive ammo... that was before I started reading posts about ammo. I've got Hornady Critical Defense, Hornady ...

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Thread: Hornady VS Gold Dot?

  1. #46
    Member Array protek's Avatar
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    I've gone through a few different kinds of defensive ammo... that was before I started reading posts about ammo. I've got Hornady Critical Defense, Hornady TAP, and Speer Gold Dot 124+p loaded into my current carry mags. Yeah, I know. Kind of scattered. I should just shoot off all the HCD. It seems too light to do much. I do like the feel of the TAP rounds. Does anyone have stats on that stuff?

    Kind of weird to me that the Hornady rounds are physically shorter than the Speer Gold Dot.

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  3. #47
    Senior Member Array GentlemanJim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snakyjake View Post
    HD Critical Duty penetrates more than 12 inches in the FBI tests.

    Hornady Critical Duty 9MM LUGER+P 135 gr

    Bare 14.0" 0.581" 99.6%
    Heavy Clothing 15.0" 0.517" 99.3%
    Sheet Metal 14.5" 0.506" 98.4%
    Wall Board 13.0" 0.592" 100%
    Plywood 14.75" 0.520" 99.6%
    Glass 14.75" 0.437" 69.6%
    Where did you get those test results?

    I looked all over the website and all I found for Critical Duty 9mm was this:

    Hornady : Law Enforcement | Products | 9MM LUGER FTX™ - 9MM LUGER 115 gr. FTX™ CRITICAL DEFENSE®

    Wait a minute...those results are for Critical Defense FTX. Is that the same as Critical Duty or have I got this all mixed up?

    Jim

  4. #48
    Member Array snakyjake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GentlemanJim View Post
    Where did you get those test results?
    Please see post #43.

    Quote Originally Posted by GentlemanJim View Post
    Wait a minute...those results are for Critical Defense FTX. Is that the same as Critical Duty or have I got this all mixed up?
    Two different products and optimized purposes: Critical Defense and Critical Duty.

    Critical Defense is designed for:
    Concealed-carry handguns are generally short-barreled, compact and lightweight, resulting in significant recoil and muzzle flip and blast. “We wanted to try to optimize ammunition to provide good terminal performance without excessive muzzle blast, flash or recoil in these types of firearms"
    FTX technology provides 100-percent-reliable and consistent expansion and lowers the velocity threshold at which the bullet will expand.” This was especially apparent in low-velocity cartridges such as the .380 ACP and .38 Spl.—the chamberings of many compact, lightweight semiautomatic pistols and short-barreled revolvers that shooters of smaller-stature, and women in particular, favor.
    I'd still like to see a comparison of Gold Dot 9mm 124gr +P vs. CD out of short barrels. But also remembering that each of us interpret recoil and flash different.

  5. #49
    Senior Member Array GentlemanJim's Avatar
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    Alright, I finally found it.

    Honestly the numbers for all three of those rounds are about as good as it gets.

    The penetration after going through laminated glass is better than most I've seen. I hope independent testing validates Hornady's numbers. They are much better than Critical Defense in my opinion.

    Jim

  6. #50
    Member Array snakyjake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GentlemanJim View Post
    They are much better than Critical Defense in my opinion.
    "Better" than what? I haven't seen results of Critical Duty (Or Gold Dot 124gr +P) from a less than 3" barrel (if it exists, please provide link/data). How about the recoil difference? How about muzzle flash tests?

    Or how about the fact that +P ammunition cannot be used in Ruger's LCP?

    Like I've said, Critical Defense was designed different for a different set of compromises: short barrels, small guns, flash and recoil sensitive shooters.

  7. #51
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Yeah.

    I'd just like to point out that those figures of Critical Duty are from the same folks who claim the Critical Defense bullet expands 100% of the time.

    In short, I don't believe them, and I won't until the performance claims are verified by an independent and credible source--not some yootoob yahoo shooting his latest concoction of "ballistic medium".
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

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    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  8. #52
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snakyjake View Post
    "Better" than what? I haven't seen results of Critical Duty (Or Gold Dot 124gr +P) from a less than 3" barrel (if it exists, please provide link/data). How about the recoil difference? How about muzzle flash tests?

    Or how about the fact that +P ammunition cannot be used in Ruger's LCP?
    According to Hornady, Critical Duty isn't designed for barrels under 3," and the ammo hasn't been made public yet, so the chances that any independent testing has been done are slim to none.

    Based on kinetic energy, the Critical Duty loads are all full power loads, and they will have recoil similar to other full power loads.

    As for muzzle flash, it depends on the type(s) of powders they use.

    Who cares that +P ammunition can't be used in the LCP? SAAMI doesn't have a specification for +P in .380 ACP anyways...
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  9. #53
    Senior Member Array GentlemanJim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snakyjake View Post
    "Better" than what?

    Better than Critical Defense for my purposes.

    I haven't seen results of Critical Duty (Or Gold Dot 124gr +P) from a less than 3" barrel (if it exists, please provide link/data).

    The only weapon I carry with hollow point ammunition that has a barrel shorter than 3" is my SW 442. It is loaded with Winchester PDX-1 130 grain +P and I don't see that changing in the foreseeable future.

    How about the recoil difference?

    It's full power ammo. I'm sure there's more recoil that the Critical Defense ammo but I'm fine with that. There ain't no free lunch.

    How about muzzle flash tests?

    Hornady states they use low flash powder. I see no reason to doubt them. If they are marketing to LE it behooves them to be honest. Besides it's not like there is some secret to making low flash powder. On top of that the video shows the ammo being fired and I didn't see any muzzle flash to speak of.

    Or how about the fact that +P ammunition cannot be used in Ruger's LCP?

    I don't understand this statement. Only one of the three loads they offer is +P and they don't even offer it in .380.

    Like I've said, Critical Defense was designed different for a different set of compromises: short barrels, small guns, flash and recoil sensitive shooters.

    This is true and the compromises that were made for the Critical Defense line also cause it to fail to successfully pass the FBI protocols. That's not to say I want to get shot with it or that I would be wringing my hands if I had to carry it, I just think the Critical Duty is better for the purposes I envision using it based on the limited data on the Hornady website.
    Have a great day!

    Jim
    Last edited by GentlemanJim; December 8th, 2011 at 03:36 PM.

  10. #54
    Member Array snakyjake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    According to Hornady, Critical Duty isn't designed for barrels under 3"
    Yup, that's what Critical Defense is for. But people like to think Gold Dot 124gr +P is so great, that it should also be put into short barrels and lightweight firearms.

    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    Who cares that +P ammunition can't be used in the LCP? SAAMI doesn't have a specification for +P in .380 ACP anyways...
    "The Ruger LCP was not designed for use with +P ammunition. Given the LCP's light weight and compact design, the use of +P ammunition in this particular model may result in damage to the firearm or personal injury."

  11. #55
    Member Array snakyjake's Avatar
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    @GentlemanJim

    Are you sure your Winchester PDX performs better than Critical Defense out of your 1.875" barrel; Or are you presuming the service pistols used in the FBI protocols equal the ballistics of a 1.875" barrel?

    Reminds me of shooting .45 ACP out of those 3" 1911's....very poor ballistics. Same with 357 out of the short barrels; excessive flash, sound, and recoil, with no advantage over +P.

  12. #56
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snakyjake View Post
    Yup, that's what Critical Defense is for. But people like to think Gold Dot 124gr +P is so great, that it should also be put into short barrels and lightweight firearms.

    "The Ruger LCP was not designed for use with +P ammunition. Given the LCP's light weight and compact design, the use of +P ammunition in this particular model may result in damage to the firearm or personal injury."
    Speer has a special Gold Dot called "Gold Dot Short Barrel" which is specifically designed for short barrels. The weight of the firearm has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

    You've missed my point... Of course the LCP wasn't designed for +P ammo. There is NO SUCH THING as .380 ACP +P according to SAAMI. It's hard to design a firearm for something that technically doesn't exist, right? I'm not sure why you even brought up the LCP.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  13. #57
    Member Array snakyjake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    There is NO SUCH THING as .380 ACP +P according to SAAMI. It's hard to design a firearm for something that technically doesn't exist, right? I'm not sure why you even brought up the LCP.
    38 Super Auto Plus P 125gr DPX | COR®BON/Glaser Self Defense | Dakota Ammo

    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    weight of the firearm has absolutely nothing to do with anything.
    Lightweight typically means the components can't handle the stress or everything is smaller. Also can mean there's more recoil and flip.

    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    Speer has a special Gold Dot called "Gold Dot Short Barrel" which is specifically designed for short barrels.
    Yup, just like Critical Defense, though this is where the design may give an advantage to CD. When ammo is made for the shorter barrel, there's a compromise, and that's why I think CD might be better. Like to see more testing, but when in doubt I lean towards design.

  14. #58
    Senior Member Array AZ Hawk's Avatar
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    You may want to rethink that. .38 Super =/= .380 ACP

    Quote Originally Posted by snakyjake View Post
    Lightweight typically means the components can't handle the stress or everything is smaller. Also can mean there's more recoil and flip.
    Not really... For example, Glocks are lightweight and use plastic guide rods which can handle about as much stress as you want to throw at them.

    Quote Originally Posted by snakyjake View Post
    Yup, just like Critical Defense, though this is where the design may give an advantage to CD. When ammo is made for the shorter barrel, there's a compromise, and that's why I think CD might be better. Like to see more testing, but when in doubt I lean towards design.
    Eh, I'll stick with the Barnes TAC-XP in any barrel length.
    Move. Shoot. Survive. ― The "Unofficial" Suarez International Doctrine

    “The real man smiles in trouble, gathers strength from distress and grows brave by reflection.” ― Thomas Paine

  15. #59
    Senior Member Array GentlemanJim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snakyjake View Post
    @GentlemanJim

    Are you sure your Winchester PDX performs better than Critical Defense out of your 1.875" barrel; Or are you presuming the service pistols used in the FBI protocols equal the ballistics of a 1.875" barrel?

    Reminds me of shooting .45 ACP out of those 3" 1911's....very poor ballistics. Same with 357 out of the short barrels; excessive flash, sound, and recoil, with no advantage over +P.
    A friend of mine was at a Winchester sponsored gel shoot and one of the officers got to shoot his 642 loaded with PDX-1. These are the results of the shoot:

    Cloth test:
    .38 - 886fps/13 1/4" pen/.53" exp
    127gr +P+ - 1203fps/12"/.63"
    147gr - 927fps/14"/.58"

    Drywall:
    .38 - 891fps/10 3/4"/.53"
    127gr +P+ - 1199fps/11 1/4"/.59"
    147gr - 925fps/13"/.52"

    Laminated Auto Glass:
    .38 - No vel reading/7 3/4"/.52"
    127gr +P+ - 1196fps/7 1/4"/.51"
    147gr - 939fps/9"/.47"

    Disclaimer: Of course on a different day with ammo from a different lot number the results might not be the same.

    Jim

  16. #60
    Member Array snakyjake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    You may want to rethink that. .38 Super =/= .380 ACP
    Ok. Here's another try: BUFFALO-BARNES LEAD-FREE .380 Auto +P Ammo. Including from Magtech, and Grizzly too. But to your real point, these are exceptions. To my real point, short barrels might not gain anything by +P ammo, and I haven't see any tests between +P and CD out of short barrels.

    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    Not really... For example, Glocks are lightweight and use plastic guide rods which can handle about as much stress as you want to throw at them.
    I quoted what the manufacturer said. If they manufacturer doesn't feel confident their firearm will handle +P, I believe them.

    Quote Originally Posted by AZ Hawk View Post
    Eh, I'll stick with the Barnes TAC-XP in any barrel length.
    Not disagreeing. My point is that you can't compare ammo designed for short firearms with ammo designed for service length. And the subject I really want to know more about is how often does the bullet fail (expand, separate, fragment) for compact/sub firearms?

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