9mm Luger vs 9mm NATO. Any difference?

9mm Luger vs 9mm NATO. Any difference?

This is a discussion on 9mm Luger vs 9mm NATO. Any difference? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Any difference in 9mm Luger and 9mm NATO? I noticed on an ammunition site that they have both listed. the Lugers are +p....

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Thread: 9mm Luger vs 9mm NATO. Any difference?

  1. #1
    Member Array floridaguy911's Avatar
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    Question 9mm Luger vs 9mm NATO. Any difference?

    Any difference in 9mm Luger and 9mm NATO? I noticed on an ammunition site that they have both listed. the Lugers are +p.
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  2. #2
    Senior Member Array David III's Avatar
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    From "Cartridges of the World" -- the 9mm Luger (9x19mm Parabellum), 9mm Luger +P are all listed together, the NATO version isn't a separate listing.
    However, a factory 124 gr is listed at 1120 fps, while a 9mm military round is listed at 1299 fps, specification for the M882 cartridge is 27,000 psi.
    The book doesn't list velocities for +P unfortunately.
    For what it's worth, the ammo that I've fired in the past that was specifically marked 9mm NATO didn't seem to me to be excessively hot, but it all had hard primers. In fact, some of it couldn't be fired by a little Glock (but to be fair, it could also have been submachine gun ammo, too, and I've heard it's got tough primers).
    Hopefully, someone else on here will have the right info!

  3. #3
    Member Array jrad38's Avatar
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    Same round.

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    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    Same thing

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    I did have some ways back some NATO 9mm - I forget whether it was marked ''DAG'' or was Hirtenberger but it must have been subgun stuff because it seemed pretty hot.

    Priming was Berdan and primers quite hard.
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    Senior Member Array Exodus's Avatar
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    From what I've heard (Special on the History Channel about Lugers), the Lugers were designed to use the same 9mm round as the Mp40 (a SMG) which was a "hot" round. They said that when the Lugers were brought back to the states, the Ammo companies made a lighter for the Lugers for some reason (don't quite remember why), which is why they had so many mis-fires (and the ratchet action gained such a bad reputation).*


    *The above statement comes from my rather fuzzy memory about a TV Special (questionable, despite being on the history channel).

    Don't know if it's true or not, but it supports David's findings. Functionally, they are the same round, I know for sure though.
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    Based upon cost alone, I recently made an online purchase of 1000 rds of Winchester 9mm NATO ammo (124gr. FMJ) for range use in my Sig P239. I am a complete novice when it comes to understanding the variations in ammo. The wording on the boxes states, "These cartridges are loaded to military velocity and pressure which is higher than 9mm Luger cartridges; average pressure is 10% higher than industry standard for 9mm Luger." Does anyone know how the 10% increase in pressure compares to what a "+P" rating would be?
    After reading the posts regarding the hard primers with the resultant high rate of misfires, I am now beginning to wonder if I made the right choice.

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    Member Array TonySoprano's Avatar
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    NATO ammo does have the hard primers but I never had any problems with miss fires. As of my understanding NATO 9mm is loaded hotter. I see the differance with my Kahr when using NATO and Commerical ammo.As using it for range ammo I used it when I was doing the training for back up weapons at the course I helped out.Matter of fact I'm still have military 38 spl and 45 acp ammo in my in my stock pile that I bought back in the 80 and it still works great. Only thing I did whit my Kahr was put a higher power recoil spring in it so the frame doesn't get beat to death.
    Gimpy as far as making a mistake I don't think so I have bought enough NATO 9mm so I have a great supply of brass to reload. I just ordered 4lds of powder and alot of Rainier Plated Bullets to keep me busy during the winter. The advantage of having indoor and outdoor ranges to use year round.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TonySoprano View Post
    Only thing I did whit my Kahr was put a higher power recoil spring in it so the frame doesn't get beat to death.
    TonySoprano, Thanks for the comments. I don't know how my P239 will compare to your Kahr regarding the recoil of the hotter ammo, but I'm going to see how it performs next week. I'm not even sure Sig makes a stronger recoil spring for it.

  10. #10
    Member Array TonySoprano's Avatar
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    Try Wolffe Springs
    Quote Originally Posted by gimpy View Post
    TonySoprano, Thanks for the comments. I don't know how my P239 will compare to your Kahr regarding the recoil of the hotter ammo, but I'm going to see how it performs next week. I'm not even sure Sig makes a stronger recoil spring for it.

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    TonySoprano, Thanks for the Wolffe Springs tip, but after putting 250 rnds of the NATO stuff through my P239 today I don't think I'll need a stronger recoil spring. I really couldn't detect any difference in recoil from the standard 9mm Luger WWB that I have been using. In fact, I took along a box of the standard WWB to compare with the NATO stuff. I alternated magazines of WWB and NATO, but the feel of the gun and my other senses just couldn't discern any differences. I must admit though that any time spent at the range is so much fun that trying to conduct any type of useful experiment in the process is probably a waste of time for me.
    "Society never advances. It recedes as fast on one side as it gains on the other. It undergoes continual change; but this change is not [an improvement]. For everything that is given, something is taken."
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    Member Array Double Naught Spy's Avatar
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    "These cartridges are loaded to military velocity and pressure which is higher than 9mm Luger cartridges; average pressure is 10% higher than industry standard for 9mm Luger." Does anyone know how the 10% increase in pressure compares to what a "+P" rating would be?
    The "+P" is plus pressure to supposedly indicate it is above some norm, but that norm seems to be manufacturer and model specific. In some cases, you will find one brand and model of +P ammo that actually produces a lower velocity than another brand's non +P ammo for the same caliber and slug weight. In other words, how something compares to "+P" is extremely subjective and depends specifically on particular brands and models of ammo being compared.

  13. #13
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    Thanks Double Naught Spy for providing such a clear and concise explanation of what "+P" means. It certainly makes sense when one thinks about the number of manufacturers that use the term. After thinking about it for awhile I believe one could say that "+P" is to ammunition what "new and improved" is to laundry detergent.
    "Society never advances. It recedes as fast on one side as it gains on the other. It undergoes continual change; but this change is not [an improvement]. For everything that is given, something is taken."
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    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    About the only stuff to "watch out for" is the Hirtenberger L7A1, or any other fodder marked, "Submachine gun Ammunition".

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