Fastest potential incapacitation 45 or 10mm ?

This is a discussion on Fastest potential incapacitation 45 or 10mm ? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; They're both fine calibers. Immediate incapacitation is more of a mind set thing, unless they're shot in the brain stem. COM hit, people fall or ...

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Thread: Fastest potential incapacitation 45 or 10mm ?

  1. #16
    RKM
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    They're both fine calibers. Immediate incapacitation is more of a mind set thing, unless they're shot in the brain stem. COM hit, people fall or are incapacitated immediately because their will to continue fighting is ruined by severe pain. The difference between 10mm and .45 will likely not change this. Technically speaking, I think a properly loaded 10mm is a more powerful and effective round, but you shoot a guy twice, once with each caliber, he'll likely say they both were painful and then probably die.

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  3. #17
    Member Array GutshotJohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDW4ME View Post



    When you ask a question you should be prepared for an answer, even if it's not the answer you wanted. It might just be the answer you need.

    Your original question about quickest incapicitation cannot be answered as there are simply too many variables involved and any differences are so negligible as to be meaningless.

    The biggest factor is shot placement. That's what I've seen numerous people state here and what you seemed to acknowledge in your OP.

    Other than that the only clear answer is whichever has the greatest kinetic energy but that shouldn't be the prime consideration in ammo selection.

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    The FBI load" originally" tested was a 170 grn made by Norma. It's velocity was about 200 fps faster than your weak 155 at 1200.

    Furthermore, I have 40 S&W loads with a 180 weight bullet @ 1100 fps. And my G29 has been chronoed, not guesstimated, to shoot a 180 grn Nosler at over 1250 fps.

    Partner, I'm having a little trouble with the question you posed here. What conclusion can we draw? Will a shot to the center of the heart or a direct hit to the spine by a 10mm do anything quicker than that same hit with a 45? A 38? Perhaps a 9mm?

    The proper question I think, is what caliber has the best chance of delivering a straight line penetrating shot capable of defeating biological and anatomical obstructions to vital organ tissue.

    Maybe you are looking or hoping for a specific answer, but even though I have been a long time advocate of the 10mm, it would be irresponsible for me to suggest it more capable of instant stopping over the 45acp.
    Last edited by glockman10mm; December 29th, 2011 at 08:04 AM.
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  5. #19
    Ex Member Array Bullet1234's Avatar
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    If you can't decide ,,,, put 10 on the left side and
    45 on the right,,,, to me they are about the same
    from my experiences. Just something to talk about
    like 9 vs 38. I prefer the 38 & 45,,,, just me.

    Findings from the FBI report statements. (I found important)
    "The 9mm is no more effective than the .38 Special,
    the difference between the two is marginal" (10 vs 45)
    (best round)
    ".380 - there isn’t one".
    ".357 - we haven’t found one that is sufficiently better than the best .38 load "

    BUT what I find the real difference is:
    "In a 20-year career, an Agent will fire at least
    40,000 rounds".

    What I got out of the FBI report is
    "Practice, Practice, Practice & more Practice.

    Thanks for the FBI report.
    http://firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

    free pdf convert at:
    http://www.pdftoword.com/

  6. #20
    Distinguished Member Array CDW4ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    The FBI load" originally" tested was a 170 grn made by Norma. It's velocity was about 200 fps faster than your weak 155 at 1200.

    Furthermore, I have 40 S&W loads with a 180 weight bullet @ 1100 fps. And my G29 has been chronoed, not guesstimated, to shoot a 180 grn Nosler at over 1250 fps.

    Partner, I'm having a little trouble with the question you posed here. What conclusion can we draw? Will a shot to the center of the heart or a direct hit to the spine by a 10mm do anything quicker than that same hit with a 45? A 38? Perhaps a 9mm?

    The proper question I think, is what caliber has the best chance of delivering a straight line penetrating shot capable of defeating biological and anatomical obstructions to vital organ tissue.

    Maybe you are looking or hoping for a specific answer, but even though I have been a long time advocate of the 10mm, it would be irresponsible for me to suggest it more capable of instant stopping over the 45acp.
    I've twice stated that my average chronographed velocity out of my 29 is 1,278 fps (562# KE) which you arbitrarily reduce to 1,200
    Using your arbitrary reduction formula then your 180 gr. Nosler would also be reduced to 1,200.
    Did Hornady tick you off sometime in the past?
    I can easily find chrono results that showing the load I've selected to be comparable to other full power FACTORY loads, especially since I have a 3 3/4'' barrel on my 29.
    Here is a thread where the owner has a Glock 20 and recently chronographed Double Tap 180 gr. @ 1,207 fps
    Disappointed with Doubletap's 180g. load - Glock Talk
    180 gr. @ 1,207 fps is 582# KE from a 4 1/2'' barrel.

    "Straight line penetrating shot"
    Okay, here is something relevant to the topic. Which of the two loads under discussion would be more likely to keep a straight line penetrating shot?

    Simple hypothetical question involving two loads placed in the same spot, requires only a "I would pick ____ because of ______" response.

    Possible answers that might be expected:
    I would take the 45 because I think Ranger T would make a larger permenant cavity, larger holes more likely to get quick result.
    The 45 would crush more tissue; I don't think temporary stretch is a factor in handguns.
    I would take the 10mm because the 10mm would make a larger temporary stretch cavity, stretch cavity is why the 125 gr. 357 Mag was so good.
    The 10mm would be more likely to penetrate in a straight path and reach vital organs which could result in a faster effect.

    No internal lock or magazine disconnect on my pistols!

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Well then, since you have all the answers listed, then you have it.

    And yes I reduced your 1278 to 1200. Let's say it's 1300 fps to round it up. What difference is it really going to make?

    And, chrono results will change from gun to gun, and lot to lot of ammo, even if it's the same loading.

    Again, any answer given is not an absolute, and I don't see what the purpose of the question is. What are you trying to derive from the question?
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  8. #22
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    So post a question that really did not need to be asked due to the conditional factors, then argue with everyone who provides you answers? Classic thread.

  9. #23
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    Debates like this rage for years. Why? Because there isn't a clear cut winner and ultimately it boils down to personal preference. I'll back up and say that Velocity and KE should really be factored out of the equation. The size of the permanent cavity is what is most likely to cause incapacitation. The size of the bullet is important here, but so is how it behaves terminally.

    This however is impacted by clothing, barriers such as windshields and other variables, so there again there isn't a hard/fast answer...or rather the question itself is flawed.

    I'll defer to DocGKR on M4c...

    "Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios."

    If you notice the pictures of the expanded projectiles the difference between a 9mm and a .45 is approx 1/10th of an inch assuming full expansion. The difference between .40 (essentially a 10mm bullet) and .45 is 1/20th of an inch. Do people really think that 1/20th of an inch is going to make a difference between survival and death?


    DocGKR's thoughts on 10mm.


    If I was a park ranger out in the woods and with the possibility of facing bear or cougar I'd probably give the edge to 10mm as a selection. Under any other circumstance I'd give the edge to .45.

    That said I've seen nothing by the OP that indicates he's thought about his needs or "mission". So without a deeper understanding of this, how much training he does, what his likely "engagement scenario" is going to be, this is nearly an impossible question to answer.
    glockman10mm likes this.

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Thank you AZchevy and GutShotJohn for saying better what I was trying to say. I believe the OP got defensive with me because he thought I was trying to give him a hard time.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  11. #25
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    "Simple hypothetical question involving two loads placed in the same spot, requires only a "I would pick ____ because of ______" response."


    Are you asking this because you truly have a crying need to know if there could be a millisecond quicker incapacitation from one of the two or are you just bored?

    An assailant could be said to be having a bad day if struck with a good hit from either of them.
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  12. #26
    Distinguished Member Array CDW4ME's Avatar
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    Sorry everyone.
    My fault for starting a thread about which caliber might be better given equal shot placement.
    I thought I was specific enough in my original post to keep the discussion focused on caliber.
    I thought it would generate some responses in favor of bigger bullet and some in favor of higher KE, exactly which is better seems like a close call.
    I got a couple of those replies, so in that regard I saw what I expected.
    If I had a "What's better given equal shot placement, .22 or .45 ?" That would be pointless.
    How about a "9mm vs 45" ? Again, the 45 wins, at least for me.
    40 cal (10mm) with 560# of KE vs 45 (390# KE) seemed worthy of consideration / discussion.
    No internal lock or magazine disconnect on my pistols!

  13. #27
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    Again, one can engage in endless measurebation, but that requires focusing on the wrong things.

    If you are interesting in how to build the best possible deck, do you focus solely on what color stain is best?
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  14. #28
    Distinguished Member Array CDW4ME's Avatar
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    MattInFla: Maybe (I'm not sure) it would have been more specific (I thought I was quite specific) if I had the original post like this:

    Suppose you are loading groceries into your vehicle. A strange man about 200# and 6' tall approaches . The man walks up asking which way to go to find a clinic, but as he gets closer you sense something is wrong . About this time he pulls a small pistol and demands money, the safety is still on on his pistol (yes, you are that observant at a time like this). You figure you will get shot even if you comply with this request and decide to draw.

    That day before leaving the house you could either wear your Glock 29 10mm loaded with 155 Hornady XTP @ 1,278 fps / 562# KE or your Glock 30 loaded with Ranger T 230 gr. @ 874 fps / 390# KE.

    At this point (and you did not know it before hand, so it's too late to change now) two things are certain:
    -You fire a shot and it strikes the potential killer in the sternum.
    -Your firing pin breaks after that first shot.

    Which bullet, given that shot placement, do you feel is most likely to prevent the would be killer from swiping off the safety and shooting you back?

    Specific enough?

    Yes, it's hypothetical, but I intended for the focus of discussion in this thread to be the fastest potential incapacitation of two loads given equal shot placement, no more.
    No internal lock or magazine disconnect on my pistols!

  15. #29
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    There are too many variables to produce a meaningful answer to your inquiry, IMHO.

    My point is that the inquiry itself is meaningless in the context of self-defense.
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  16. #30
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    You are asking which of two different calibers that perform exceptionally well (out of handgun calibers) is best... I think that either will serve you pretty darn well.

    For some reason a lot of people here think that shot placement is everything and that they can use spit-wads if their aim is true enough to kill a bull elephant.

    Between these two PROVEN calibers, I would side with the shot placement concept. Some folks have a hard time with 10mm, others do not like 45. I would find the one that handles best for you (of these two) and stick with it.
    "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain."
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