Fastest potential incapacitation 45 or 10mm ?

This is a discussion on Fastest potential incapacitation 45 or 10mm ? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I don't think you can use spit wads to bring down a bull elephant, and I do think the golden BB principle has merit, but ...

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Thread: Fastest potential incapacitation 45 or 10mm ?

  1. #31
    Member Array GutshotJohn's Avatar
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    I don't think you can use spit wads to bring down a bull elephant, and I do think the golden BB principle has merit, but I don't think 9mm, .380 or even .22LR qualifies as a spit wad. As a paramedic I saw a lot of people shot and killed with .22LR. Not that it's preferred only that properly placed it can work. 9mm or better is the better way to go.

    The issue is that the calibers mentioned are the calibers that most people have trouble shooting well due to stiff recoil. They're also very expensive which means you're likely to practice less. Both of these impede proper shot placement.

    Any handgun bullet is likely to require more than one shot so the ability to fire at least one accurate follow-up shot is vital. So in short...yes shot placement, while not everything, is 99% of effectiveness.

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  3. #32
    Senior Member Array CanuckQue's Avatar
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    I think the beauty of the 10mm is you can deliver kinetic energy not really available in the .45 acp. When you're talking incapacitation, though, people should be thinking of the ability to deliver a second shot on target. Unfortunately, I've never fired a .45 acp from a platform that was the same weight as a 10mm, so I can't really judge your ability to control recoil.

    That said, I think the fast 10mm will cut more tissue than the .45 acp. It's more likely to sever and cut deeper. But, like I said, I'd rather have two impact points (with controlled recoil) than one.
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  4. #33
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    The 10mm has two strong points; sectional density coupled with smaller( sleeker) diameter, and blistering speed. These two things allow it to create more soft tissue smack, and penetrate.
    With a considerably lighter bullet, a deep ugly wound is likely.

    The 45acp on the otherhand, has diameter, and weight. These do not depend on high pressure or velocity to penetrate or even break heavy bone.

    They are both two different vehicles, achieving the same thing in different ways.

    If, we were to increase the weight of the 10mm to 230 grns, and reduce the weight of the 45, we would see completely different animals here for both, with each taking on characteristics of the other.

    I have always felt like the 10mm was a little too much for SD, kinda like the 41 mag or 44 mag would be. For me it has a special purpose role, even so it's very versatile.
    Both will do to ride the river with.
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  5. #34
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    I find myself in agreement with GutshotJohn, MattInFLA and anyone else expressing sentiments similar to theirs.

    Due to the nearly infinite number of variables involved (human physiology, psychology and the numerous things that can go "right" or "wrong" during a shooting) it is simply not possible to predict a time to incapacitation for any caliber.

    Do what the "pros" do- invest in some high quality training and maintain your equipment in the best condition possible.
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  6. #35
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    It's still all down to accuracy and adequate penetration if incapacitation is to be achieved. There is a range of handgun cartridges available to us that, when fired in suitable pistols can produce both with fair dependability.

    Hint: The .25 ACP isn't one of them.
    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

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  7. #36
    Senior Member Array TonyDTrigger's Avatar
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    Food for thought:

    Fromandskorpset - the Danish Navy SEALs - recently switched to Glock 20s:

    "The weapons carried also reflect the harsh conditions. Only bolt-action rifles (M17/M53) performs reliably. The standard SIG210 Neuhausen sidearm was recently replaced by the 10mm Glock 20, as the stopping power of multiple 9mm rounds proved to be insufficient against a polar bear"

  8. #37
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    I'd certainly choose the 10mm over the 9mm if polar bears were on the menu and no other arms were available but the two kinds of pistols.

    I have to admit that I'd love to have a fine SIG P210 though. I just wouldn't choose it for handgun polar bear stopping.
    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

  9. #38
    Senior Member Array CanuckQue's Avatar
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    I'd certainly not use the load in the Opening Post if I was carrying the 10mm "in case of polar bear", though!
    Our current plan for Universal Iron Lung coverage, just sayin'.
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  10. #39
    Member Array GutshotJohn's Avatar
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    Yeah I think we can all agree that 9mm vs. Polar Bear isn't a recipe for success.

    10mm is definitely the way to go. I am however curious how the Danes, as a member of NATO, are going handle the logistics issues involved with 10mm.

  11. #40
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GutshotJohn View Post
    Yeah I think we can all agree that 9mm vs. Polar Bear isn't a recipe for success.

    10mm is definitely the way to go. I am however curious how the Danes, as a member of NATO, are going handle the logistics issues involved with 10mm.
    It's for one specialized unit, not their entire armed forces...kinda like how some specops units for the US are running .40...
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  12. #41
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GutshotJohn View Post
    Yeah I think we can all agree that 9mm vs. Polar Bear isn't a recipe for success.

    10mm is definitely the way to go. I am however curious how the Danes, as a member of NATO, are going handle the logistics issues involved with 10mm.
    Most SF type units don't give a hoot about relying on NATO for resupply of their gear. I sure heck didn't

  13. #42
    Member Array GutshotJohn's Avatar
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    If memory serves in a discussion with a well known instructor formerly of Delta, the units running .40 are doing so in covert roles. Operationally they are still using 9mm.

  14. #43
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GutshotJohn View Post
    If memory serves in a discussion with a well known instructor formerly of Delta, the units running .40 are doing so in covert roles. Operationally they are still using 9mm.
    Just out of curiosity: do you know what covert roles are vs clandestine, and do they ever operate in an overt role?

  15. #44
    Member Array GutshotJohn's Avatar
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    I don't know the difference in their context. Clandestine may have been the better word.

    It's essentially when they are in civilian/street clothes. EDC.

  16. #45
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GutshotJohn View Post
    I don't know the difference in their context. Clandestine may have been the better word.

    It's essentially when they are in civilian/street clothes. EDC.
    Go back and talk to the guy that was in Delta

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