Fastest potential incapacitation 45 or 10mm ?

This is a discussion on Fastest potential incapacitation 45 or 10mm ? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Here are two loads with nearly the same recoil: Hornady 155 XTP 10mm or Winchester Ranger T 230 45. Let's assume shooting them from a ...

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Thread: Fastest potential incapacitation 45 or 10mm ?

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    Distinguished Member Array CDW4ME's Avatar
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    Question Fastest potential incapacitation 45 or 10mm ?

    Here are two loads with nearly the same recoil:
    Hornady 155 XTP 10mm or Winchester Ranger T 230 45.
    Let's assume shooting them from a similar platform like a Glock 29 SF or 30 SF, keeping this simple.

    Felt recoil as calculated by power factor (PF) is nearly the same, although that's not relevant to incapacitation.

    Hornady 155 XTP @ 1,278 fps / 562# KE / PF 198 (.88 momentum)
    Ranger T 230 @ 874 fps / 390# KE / PF 201 (.89 momentum)

    Yes, both would work just great for SD, but...

    Which load has the greatest incapacitation potential against a violent, armed, drugged...ect... human attacker, assuming equal shot placement?

    Please avoid other considerations and just stick to which would (could) have the quickest potential incapacitation and why.

    Ammo selection, availability, practice, and I wouldn't want to get shot with either are not points of contention.

    Premium .45 HP bullet with 390# KE or 40 HP bullet with 560# KE, hitting the same spot; which is more likely to stop immediately stop the attack?
    Yes, it is diameter vs KE, but this seems like a close contest.
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    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Given identical placement, etc, etc etc...the .45 will likely have more expansion, cutting a wider wound channel, with a better chance of clipping something that bleeds a lot. I'd alsolean towards the heavier bullet penetrating deeper.

    Kinetic energy is poor way of judging effectiveness.
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    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

    See that link.

    The answer is that it doesn't matter. With a handgun, humans are only incapacitated instantly by destroying the brain or upper spinal cord.

    So long as the round has sufficient energy to reach its intended target and can be shot accurately and quickly, the actual round isn't relevant.

    Either of your choices is acceptable; however, go with the one you shoot most accurately, most quickly.

    This is a training issue, not a gun/bullet/ammo company issue.

    Any attempt to make it so is like someone ignoring the menu selections of prime rib or filet mignon, and complaining the pepper in the pepper mill isn't ground fine enough to suit their taste...

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

    See that link.

    The answer is that it doesn't matter. With a handgun, humans are only incapacitated instantly by destroying the brain or upper spinal cord.

    So long as the round has sufficient energy to reach its intended target and can be shot accurately and quickly, the actual round isn't relevant.

    Either of your choices is acceptable; however, go with the one you shoot most accurately, most quickly.

    This is a training issue, not a gun/bullet/ammo company issue.

    Any attempt to make it so is like someone ignoring the menu selections of prime rib or filet mignon, and complaining the pepper in the pepper mill isn't ground fine enough to suit their taste...
    ^^^ This ^^^

    One can engage in endless measurebation about whether 0.05" of diameter makes a difference, but the simple fact is that any handgun is a marginal "stopper" and instant incapacitation is a myth unless the brain or spinal cord (above the level of c-7) are destroyed. Outside of those parameters, incapacitation is as much a psychological as physiological issue in the short amount of time involved in an armed confrontation.

    The effort expended in endless caliber versus caliber arguments would be much better spent practicing getting reliable, repeatable, quick hits on a target while you, your target, or both are moving.

    Above a certain basic level, it is proficiency rather than gear which determines the outcome.
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    The target determines speed and type of incapacitation. A heavy 45 or 10 to the pelvis can disrupt the muscular-skeletal system, a stitch up the COM with any caliber may start a cardio-vascular shut down time clock, but a 22 to the high cervical or brain stem means almost instantaneous lights out. Between the 45 and 10, I would choose the 45 as loaded by Cor Bon in their +p DPX.
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    Member Array whitmoresc's Avatar
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    This link will show FBI comparisons between .45 and 10mm. Some interesting stuff here.
    http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf
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    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunthorp View Post
    A heavy 45 or 10 to the pelvis can disrupt the muscular-skeletal system...
    Shots to the Pelvis - M4Carbine.net Forums



    Fackler ML: "Shots to the Pelvic Area ". Wound Ballistics Review. 4(1):13; 1999.

    “I welcome the chance to refute the belief that the pelvic area is a reasonable target during a gunfight. I can find no evidence or valid rationale for intentionally targeting the pelvic area in a gunfight. The reasons against, however, are many. They include:

    -- From the belt line to the top of the head, the areas most likely to rapidly incapacitate the person hit are concentrated in or near the midline. In the pelvis, however, the blood vessels are located to each side, having diverged from the midline, as the aorta and inferior vena cava divide at about the level of the navel. Additionally, the target that, when struck, is the most likely to cause rapid and reliable incapacitation, the spinal cord located in the midline of the abdomen, thorax and neck), ends well above the navel and is not a target in the pelvis.
    -- The pelvic branches of the aorta and inferior vena cava are more difficult to hit than their parent vessels -- they are smaller targets, and they diverge laterally from the midline (getting farther from it as they descend). Even if hit, each carry far less blood than the larger vessels from which they originated. Thus, even if one of these branches in the pelvis is hit, incapacitation from blood loss must necessarily be slower than from a major vessel hit higher up in the torso.
    -- Other than soft tissue structures not essential to continuing the gunfight (loops of bowel, bladder) the most likely thing to be struck by shots to the pelvis would be bone. The ilium is a large flat bone that forms most of the back wall of the pelvis. The problem is that handgun bullets that hit it would not break the bone but only make a small hole in passing through it: this would do nothing to destroy bony support of the pelvic girdle. The pelvic girdle is essentially a circle: to disrupt its structure significantly would require breaking it in two places. Only a shot that disrupted the neck or upper portion of the shaft of the femur would be likely to disrupt bony support enough to cause the person hit to fall. This is a small and highly unlikely target: the aim point to hit it would be a mystery to those without medical training — and to most of those with medical training.

    The “theory” stated in the question postulates that “certain autonomic responses the body undergoes during periods of stress” causes officers to shoot low, and that apparently this is good in a gunfight because such shots cause “severe disability.” I hope that the points presented above debunk the second part of the theory. As for the “autonomic responses” that cause officers to shoot low, I am unaware of anything in the anatomy or physiology of the autonomic nervous system that would even suggest such an occurrence. Most laymen do not understand the function of the autonomic nervous system. It is simply a system whose main function is to fine tune the glands and smooth muscles (those in the walls of organs and blood vessels) of the body. During times of stress such as perceived impending danger, the autonomic nervous system diverts blood from the intestines and digestive organs to the skeletal muscles — in the so-called “fight or flight” response. The effects of this response are constantly exaggerated by laymen who lack an adequate understanding of it — most notably by gun writ-ers eager to impress their readers. Interestingly, the human body can get along quite well without major parts of the autonomic nervous system. During my professional life as a surgeon, myself and colleagues removed parts of thousands of vagus nerves (mostly in treating peptic ulcer disease) -- thus depriving the patient of the major part of the parasympathetic half of the autonomic nervous system. We also removed many ganglia from the sympathetic half of the auto-nomic nervous system, in treating such things as profusely excess sweating and various problems caused by spasm of the arteries. I am unaware of any evidence that these operations produced any significant effect on the future capacity of these patients to react appropriately in times of impending danger.

    Unfortunately, the pelvis shot fallacy is common. This fallacy, along with other misinformation, is promoted constantly by at least one gun writer who is widely published in the popular gun press. Because of this, I regularly debunk this fallacy by including some of the above rationale in my presentations to law enforcement firearm instructor groups.”

    (SHOOT THE BRAIN, SPINE OR HEART AND PEOPLE DIE. SHOOT OTHER PLACES...TAKE YOUR OWN GUESS...)
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    Back during the FBI testing phase of the 10mm, the 10 was found to be superior in their test criteria to the 45Acp. However, test criteria does not translate into flesh and bone performance all together.

    This is not really a reasonable question, as they both will work but in different ways. I would be comfortable with either, and expect good performance from both.

    By the way, that Hornady 155 at 1200 fps is a weak ass 10mm load.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

    See that link.

    The answer is that it doesn't matter. With a handgun, humans are only incapacitated instantly by destroying the brain or upper spinal cord.

    So long as the round has sufficient energy to reach its intended target and can be shot accurately and quickly, the actual round isn't relevant.

    Either of your choices is acceptable; however, go with the one you shoot most accurately, most quickly.

    This is a training issue, not a gun/bullet/ammo company issue.

    Any attempt to make it so is like someone ignoring the menu selections of prime rib or filet mignon, and complaining the pepper in the pepper mill isn't ground fine enough to suit their taste...
    "Wot eee sed ^^^." I think MitchellCT nailed it.

    Your ears will suffer more from full-power 10mm (or .357 mag) than normal pressure .45 ACP. But it might not matter, so long as you live to tell the tale.
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    Distinguished Member Array CDW4ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
    Given identical placement, etc, etc etc...the .45 will likely have more expansion, cutting a wider wound channel, with a better chance of clipping something that bleeds a lot. I'd alsolean towards the heavier bullet penetrating deeper.

    Kinetic energy is poor way of judging effectiveness.
    Thank you, this is the type of response I was hoping to get, a choice with reasoning to support it.

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Back during the FBI testing phase of the 10mm, the 10 was found to be superior in their test criteria to the 45Acp. However, test criteria does not translate into flesh and bone performance all together.

    This is not really a reasonable question, as they both will work but in different ways. I would be comfortable with either, and expect good performance from both.

    By the way, that Hornady 155 at 1200 fps is a weak ass 10mm load.


    I believe the FBI tested / adopted the down loaded 180 gr. version, however the XTP bullet was designed to meet their protocol.

    Hornady 155 gr. load isn't so weak. I got 1,278 and 1,279 averages for 5 shots out of my 3 3/4'' Glock 29 which is 562# KE.

    You like the Silvertip, right? (Not that I'm keeping track) Here is the Silvertip, plus one of the original Norma 170 gr. loads out of a Glock 20
    Chrono data for Power Pistol, XTP's, and a stock G20, + factory ammo - Glock Talk

    At 1,161 fps the Silvertips generated 524# KE
    At 1,218 fps the original Norma 170 JHP was good for 560# KE

    The Hornady 155 ain't so weak out of the short 3 3/4'' barrel of the 29.
    Yes, I know about Underwood & other options, but the load I chose doesn't leave "smiles" on the brass with my stock barrel and I do not want any more recoil than the 198 PF that the Hornady 155 is delivering, keeping quick follow up shots in mind.

    No internal lock or magazine disconnect on my pistols!

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    Member Array bruce272's Avatar
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    While being somewhat off-subject, I strongly believe that a well placed hit will do the job, regardless the whether it's 10mm or .45 Cal.

    I think by now, we all know that incapacitating the BG is primary. Whether he/she lives or not is tertiary except for having a prolonged expensive civil suit.

    Knowing your weapon and shooting well under all conditions is key to achieving an instantaneous cessation of hostilities.

    Being involved in more pistol encounters than I like to admit, placement and damage is a "sometimes" thing. Where you place a large round is critical to whose funeral is attended.

    The NYPD (when they still used revolvers and 158 gr led round nosed bullets) had a saying "Take 5. then dive". Of course they were referring to not keeping that sixth round chambered in the cylinder.

    I've seen instances where a guy takes a hit with a 7.62 mm round at 15 feet and still returns fire. Does that mean we should all carry a .50 Cal pistol (if one does exist).

    I'd much rather hit the BG three or four times in center mass with a .380, than to only one or two (I always fire double taps, not the ammo but the technique) every time in a non-lethal area.

    Hopefully this helps answer the question as opposed to muddying up the waters further.
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    Member Array gregcheck's Avatar
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    I don't think it much matters between the two. Like its always pointed out, you have to hit the target first. I have a few 1911's chambered from a 38 super, 10mm & 45 acp's. I have to say I would NEVER feel out gunned while carrying any one of them just because I can use them all with equal skill & accuracy. ( out of all of them I like my 10mm the best)
    You can always get some fruit & see which caliber you like better... ( its always fun to shoot water jugs too)
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    First people place waaaaay too much emphasis on terminal performance when the real issue is shot placement.

    Second you shoot whatever part of the body you can do the most damage. If that happens to be the pelvis...shoot the pelvis. If it happens to be the big toe...shoot the big toe. I will say that having been a paramedic, I've never seen anyone walking around with a broken pelvis or fractured hip but that doesn't mean it can't happen. Can you rely on it as a target to incapcitate? No, but if you can't hit the heart or brain...it makes a decent tertiary target with lots of blood vessels, nerves and other sensitive tissue gathering there.

    Third while kinetic energy doesn't always equate to effectiveness, all other things being equal, the higher the kinetic energy the greater the potential for damage. The problem is that the real world has a way of messing with those results.

    Fourth , while velocity doesn't always equate to effectiveness, the greater the velocity, the more reliably a bullet will expand or behave as it should terminally.

    Fifth tdifferences between 10mm and .45, not to mention 9mm and .38 are often overstated. You're talking expansion differences on the order of about 5-8/100ths of an inch tops. Given decent defensive ammo that fully expands and penetrates at least 12", there is very little difference between ammo choices.

    Get the ammo you can shoot the most comfortably, hit with the most accurately and is cheap enough to practice with regularly.

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    Distinguished Member Array CDW4ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDW4ME View Post
    Yes, both would work just great for SD, but...

    Which load has the greatest incapacitation potential against a violent, armed, drugged...ect... human attacker, assuming equal shot placement?

    Please avoid other considerations and just stick to which would (could) have the quickest potential incapacitation and why.

    Ammo selection, availability, practice, and I wouldn't want to get shot with either are not points of contention.


    Quote Originally Posted by bruce272 View Post
    While being somewhat off-subject, I strongly believe that a well placed hit will do the job, regardless the whether it's 10mm or .45 Cal.
    Quote Originally Posted by gregcheck View Post
    I don't think it much matters between the two.
    Quote Originally Posted by GutshotJohn View Post
    First people place waaaaay too much emphasis on terminal performance when the real issue is shot placement.

    Second you shoot whatever part of the body you can do the most damage. If that happens to be the pelvis...shoot the pelvis. If it happens to be the big toe...shoot the big toe. I will say that having been a paramedic, I've never seen anyone walking around with a broken pelvis or fractured hip but that doesn't mean it can't happen. Can you rely on it as a target to incapcitate? No, but if you can't hit the heart or brain...it makes a decent tertiary target with lots of blood vessels, nerves and other sensitive tissue gathering there.

    Third while kinetic energy doesn't always equate to effectiveness, all other things being equal, the higher the kinetic energy the greater the potential for damage. The problem is that the real world has a way of messing with those results.

    Fourth , while velocity doesn't always equate to effectiveness, the greater the velocity, the more reliably a bullet will expand or behave as it should terminally.

    Fifth tdifferences between 10mm and .45, not to mention 9mm and .38 are often overstated. You're talking expansion differences on the order of about 5-8/100ths of an inch tops. Given decent defensive ammo that fully expands and penetrates at least 12", there is very little difference between ammo choices.

    Get the ammo you can shoot the most comfortably, hit with the most accurately and is cheap enough to practice with regularly.


    No internal lock or magazine disconnect on my pistols!

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    The one that has proper shot placement. Period.

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