Bullet stopping power chart? What are they going on?

This is a discussion on Bullet stopping power chart? What are they going on? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Well right know in comparing 2 guns a Taurus 445 .44 special and a Taurus 617 357 magnum because I'm looking to buy one of ...

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Thread: Bullet stopping power chart? What are they going on?

  1. #1
    Member Array TheZman's Avatar
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    Bullet stopping power chart? What are they going on?

    Well right know in comparing 2 guns a Taurus 445 .44 special and a Taurus 617 357 magnum because I'm looking to buy one of them soon. So looking at the stopping power chart the .357 magnum is at the top the very best power along side .45 acp. So what are they going by on this chart?
    Actual real knock down power or the number of people shot. Because if they go by a percentage of the number of people shot obviously the more popular round that more people use is going to win! I guess in my mind looking at the 2 rounds its hard for me to believe that 357 mag rated at 96% stopping power is that much more better then 44 special rated at 76% stopping power when the .44 is a bigger diameter bullet. Yes i know the 357 has more velocity but the 45 acp doesn't and thats rated at 96% also!!!
    So what are they going by here??

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Don't pay attention to charts! They are very subjective and partial to variables that have little to do with actual ballistic value or terminal performance.
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    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    JD
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    I guess it would depend on what chart is being used as a reference. Most I've seen use the Marshall and Sanow "One Shot Stop" stats.

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    Zman, I feel your pain in this quest you are on. The choice here is or should be based on what you expect to do with this gun. For protection against man, both will work the same. For protection against both man and beast, with the upper limit being small black bear of 200-300 lbs, the 44 spl loaded with a hardcast bullet at 850-1000 fps is the best option.

    The same could be done with a 357 using heavy 158-180 weight hard cast bullets pushed to 1000-1200fps.

    You see, the load chosen is just as important as the caliber, and especially in the lower calibers.
    The bigger caliber with the heavier bullet simply does the same work easier. When you drop caliber, the smaller cartridge must be pushed harder to make up for the difference in weight.

    Yes, it's a trade off. But smaller calibers simply must be loaded heavier to do the same amount of work.
    This brings you to the next question you should ask; will the gun I choose be able to handle the load you will need? The 357 operates at a higher pressure. The 44 spl at a much lower pressure.

    Energy, is simply the ability to do work. Small and mid caliber are highly dependent on this. If something happens, such as a hit to heavy bone happens, and velocity is slowed down, energy is lost, and so is terminal performance.

    A heavier bullet, although slower, has the ability to continue thru obstructions, carried on by it's sheer weight.

    The trick is to balance the things you need. And if it were me, I would go with bullet weight and bullet design, at a moderate velocity.
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    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheZman View Post
    Well right know in comparing 2 guns a Taurus 445 .44 special and a taurus 617 357 magnum because im looking to buy one of them soon. So looking at the stoping power chart the 357 magnum is at the top the very best power along side 45 acp. So what are they going buy on this chart actuall real knock down power or the number of people shot. Because if they go buy a percentange of the number of people shot obviuosly the more popular round that more people use is going to win! I guess in my mind looking at the 2 rounds its hard for me to beleave that 357 mag rated at 96% stoping power is that much more better then 44 special rated at 76% stoping power when the 44 is a bigger diameter bullet. Yes i know the 357 has more velocity but the 45 acp dosent and thats rated at 96% also!!! So what are they going buy here??
    Given that you are talking about percentages and "stopping power", it appears that you are refering to the "statistical analysis" that was put forth by Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow in an effort to rank the the performance of ammunition used in shootings.

    The M&S "statistics" have been widely debunked by several sources (most notably by Duncan MacPherson) as being statistically manipulated (ie: fraudulent) material.

    Anyone serious about the discipline would do well to completely disregard the M&S material and examine the collective works of Duncan MacPherson, M.Eng. (author of "Bullet Penetration: Modeling the Dynamics and Incapacitation Resulting From Wound Trauma", Dr. Gary Roberts, M.D. (a surgeon), Dr. Martin L. Fackler, M.D. (a military field surgeon known for his numerous papers on the subject; esp. within the IWBA), Eugene. Wolberg, Med. Ex. for San Diego, CA (now deceased) and Dr. Vincent Di Maio, M.D. (specif: his book- "Gunshot Wounds") among others.

    You can google these names and hit those 'sites as you find them since I will not list them here out of respect to the owners of this 'site. (Everybody oughtta pay for advertising. )

    Good luck.
    My favorite "gun" book-

    QUANTITATIVE AMMUNITION SELECTION

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    Senior Member Array IAm_Not_Lost's Avatar
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    I would go .357 simply because it provides far more options than the .44 special in terms of ammo selection and price. The .357 is far and wide known as a solid round that will cover all of your basic needs, from two legged protection to medium four legged protection.
    "Brilliant. So now we got a huge guy theory, and a serial crusher theory. Top notch. What's your name?" - Paul Smecker

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    Member Array TheZman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Zman, I feel your pain in this quest you are on. The choice here is or should be based on what you expect to do with this gun. For protection against man, both will work the same. For protection against both man and beast, with the upper limit being small black bear of 200-300 lbs, the 44 spl loaded with a hardcast bullet at 850-1000 fps is the best option.

    The same could be done with a 357 using heavy 158-180 weight hard cast bullets pushed to 1000-1200fps.

    You see, the load chosen is just as important as the caliber, and especially in the lower calibers.
    The bigger caliber with the heavier bullet simply does the same work easier. When you drop caliber, the smaller cartridge must be pushed harder to make up for the difference in weight.

    Yes, it's a trade off. But smaller calibers simply must be loaded heavier to do the same amount of work.
    This brings you to the next question you should ask; will the gun I choose be able to handle the load you will need? The 357 operates at a higher pressure. The 44 spl at a much lower pressure.

    Energy, is simply the ability to do work. Small and mid caliber are highly dependent on this. If something happens, such as a hit to heavy bone happens, and velocity is slowed down, energy is lost, and so is terminal performance.

    A heavier bullet, although slower, has the ability to continue thru obstructions, carried on by it's sheer weight.

    The trick is to balance the things you need. And if it were me, I would go with bullet weight and bullet design, at a moderate velocity.
    Normaly im not this obsessive about the caliber i chose but this is going to be the first gun that im looking at getting that i want for multible jobs! CCW and woods carry so im looking into it much harder and making sure i get the best all around revolver! The other reason is because im looking at a snub nose which effects velocity and ballistics greatly compared to a revolver with a longer barrell. I will say this taurus also makes a 41 mag model 415 with a 2.5 inch barrell. And that out performs the 44 special and the 357 mag. And it looks like ammo is a little easyer to find then the 44 special. And its in the small frame just like the other two.

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    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I have a 41 mag also. It is definitely a cartridge to do what you need doing. However, if you have limited experience with big bore magnums, you may find it difficult to hold on to, especially in a short barrel. You are entering a whole different realm of power in the 4+ magnums.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    As usual, Glockman called the turn. OP would do well to heed what he says. Especially the advice on charts. Math doesn't drop threats. Accurate fire of a proven (real world, not velocity and ft-lbs) load is what drops threats, two and four legged.

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    Yes, Gman's advice is well-founded.

    Are you absolutely committed to a snubby? Snubs are hard enough to hit your target with even in the minor calibers, but in the magnums and big bores it's a whole 'nother world. Controllability and thus accuracy go downhill rapidly compared to the .38s and rimfire snubs.

    I'm looking at your original post and trying to figure out what your actual needs are. Are you considering knocking down bear or 2-legged vamints? If it's simply defense of self and loved ones, a .38 loaded with +P rounds is really hard to beat, and it lacks the buck and roar of the .357 magnum. Even for trail use, I wouldn't feel underarmed with a .38 revolver loaded with some aggressive hollowpoints or hot reloads.
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    Member Array TheZman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I have a 41 mag also. It is definitely a cartridge to do what you need doing. However, if you have limited experience with big bore magnums, you may find it difficult to hold on to, especially in a short barrel. You are entering a whole different realm of power in the 4+ magnums.
    I have a 500 s&w magnum smith and wesson but its got the 8 3/8 barrell and a taurus ragingbull 44 mag i use for handgun hunting.. im familiar with big bore revolvers and shoot them well. But neighter are snub nose! But i called the gun shop on that 41 mag and they said ammo is really scarce for that gun around here alot worse then the special so i decided against it. Going buy your advise im leaning toward the 44 special because like you said bigger bullet and can work better or the same with lower pressure. I Already have bigbore handguns im just looking for a small package thats versitile for CCW and woods carry!

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    I'm sure this has been posted before, but it is still new enough I'll post it again. It has some very useful stats on "stopping power".

    An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power


    Being able to hit your target seems to be far more critical than the actual ammo type.

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    My personal experience-Been a LEO since 1965-3 jobs-AF SP/Animal Contol Supervisor for Major US city/State Leo/FBI-trainedInstructor on handgun/rifle/shotgun. The Browning HiPower site has excellent tables as does Tactical Forums(they may send to to BHP!) While I may have not been to Alaska-I've killed cows and large hogs with handguns, large feral dogs @ near 400 yd ranges and 50yrs of shooting/reloading/hunting/varmint-crow shooting w. 22 centerfires).My woods gun is a Red-dot Ruger 44 Carbine,my longer range choice is 25-06/7mm08/308, and if I am really challenged I have Mauser M98 30-06 w/a Hart bbl that puts 165gr Siera HPBTs in 5/8" @ 200 yds.
    BTW-I used to live by Marshall/Sanow-based my LEO career on their advise. The BHP Forum has good advice too.

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