9mm Luger via a LEO's perspective

wolfe, thanks for sharing things from your perspective

others may have different perspectives, no need for some of the slamming in here folks

and hitting the ground to take cover behind a curb is taught in training for when there is no other cover available

my perspective as a LEO................
I had a .45acp HK USP for home defense, got CHL, then decided to get something a little smaller (and add to the collection :image035:) so I got a G30 since I liked the 45 and already had ammo
wife got a G26 and we got a Keltec P11, both serve a good purpose
when I got into LE I got a G17 even though I could have used my HK, reason: higher capacity (18 in pistol, 34 in pouch compared to 13 in pistol 24 in pouch), compatibility with majority of the other officers
I have every bit of confidence in the G17, 9mm combo, we're issued 147 grained (:biggrin2:couldn't resist) gold dots
previously in the HK/G30 pre-LEO days I carried winchester black talons, winchester WB jhp, since becoming LEO I carry the same rounds off duty as were issued (.45 gold dots)
I also carry the Keltec off duty sometimes
I also carry a S&W 642 on my vest for a BUG, loaded with 135gr gold dots...why did I choose this instead of a compact 9mm/.380 (can't use anything large than 9mm/.38 per dept policy for BUG)...I believe the .38 will do the job with the ammo I got and wanted revolver since it was coming out of vest and most likely will be used at contact or near contact distance = no slide out of battery, etc

I have confidence in all these weapons and ammunition, I have to since I stake my life on them when needed.

the best caliber/brand?...........the one I put appropriately into the BG's chest and/or cranium

more real world info on caliber vs caliber:
Trooper Mark Hunter Coates, South Carolina Highway Patrol, South Carolina
.22 hit him in vest near strap at the top, he returned fire hitting the suspect 5 times in the chest with a .357, dirtbag got off another shot from his .22, entered under his left armpit and hit his aorta, died on the highway, dirtbag serving life sentence

I've personally dealt with man shot at point blank range with a .380 in the chest that deflected off a rib missing all vitals, another one was a girl shot in the back of neck just to the right of her MO, fmj went just between main artery/vein going up to her head, blew out 4 upper teeth and exited though sinus, was completely alert when I got on scene
I've seen men shot with .32, 9mm, 45 in chest and survive, seen men shot with .380, .25, .22, 9mm, 40, and 45 and die
recently had a woman commit suicide by putting a .357 to the right side of her head, barrel was at about a 30 degree angle to the side of her head, bullet did not enter the brain, deflected along with a chunk of the side of her skull about 5" long (and of course brain matter/blood exited
I say all this as examples of real world situations showing that you can have the biggest/baddest caliber/gun out their according to experts in the industry, or what is the best in technology, etc...and you can still not achieve what is needed
someone can also be using underpowered calibers in piece of crap guns and have luck on their side and kill the good guys

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Originally Posted by CDWolfe

LEOs around the country use hollow points because they offer superior stopping power vs. ball ammo. End of story.

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have to add....not entirely....another reason hollow points are used by LE agencies....they tend to not over-penetrate exiting the intended target and hitting an unintended target = liability, liability drives a lot of decisions made by fed/state/county/local gov't, this drives the reasoning for using hollow points now just as much as the stopping power concept:hand10:

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Originally Posted by multistage

It further validates a few theories I subscribe to: 9mm is certainly enough, and one round fired certainly isn't.

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What he said. ^^^

Okay... I'm having a bit of an issue here. You guys are saying the ONLY reason to have hollowpoints is to prevent over penetration?

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Originally Posted by livewire9880

Okay... I'm having a bit of an issue here. You guys are saying the ONLY reason to have hollowpoints is to prevent over penetration?

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Not me....2 posts above yours I said:

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Originally Posted by 64zebra

have to add....not entirely....another reason hollow points are used by LE agencies....

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reasons: prevent over-penetration, expanding in target causing bigger wound channel, expend its energy into the target, they're evil, they look cool after expansion....well the last two maybe not so much:smile:

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Originally Posted by 64zebra

Not me....2 posts above yours I said:

reasons: prevent over-penetration, expanding in target causing bigger wound channel, expend its energy into the target, they're evil, they look cool after expansion....well the last two maybe not so much:smile:

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Yeah, I caught yours, but others said something similar without the 'another' clause in it... I don't give two deifications about 'overpenetration', I'm not tasked with 'protecting and serving'. In the unlikely event I need a firearm, the odds are stacked that it'll be in some dark alley with nobody else around anyway. I carry hollowpoints because of the reasons in your explanation above.

I've heard this caliber war 1000 times, but one argument that never gets mentioned is the physics behind a bullet "collision" with a human body. This is an example of an inelastic collision (elastic being pool ball bouncing into another, ball 1 stops while ball 2 continues at the original rate of ball 1) dealing entirely with kinetic and thermal or dissipated energy.

In an inelastic collision, a lot of the initial kinetic energy is lost and gets dissipated. This means that a bullet travelling through somebody will "dump" energy into the target then keep going because the bullet still has kinetic energy. So is the difference in energy with which different caliber bullets hit terminal media important? I believe the difference in energy transfer between the handgun calibers (except 10mm, 500 S&W Magnum, and .454 Casull) is not enough to constitute a significant advantage. Is the energy dump important? Yes, as is the resultant hole from a gunshot. That energy is going to move organs around, tear flesh, and disorient the target. Imagine riding on a roller coaster. You get sick because you're being accelerated, much like the force caused by energy moving through a BG's body will accelerate his stomach, lungs, heart, etc..

So how is maximum energy transfer achieved? Well, the longer a bullet travels through target media, the more "work" the media will do on the bullet to try and stop it. This is not to say that penetration is king, just to say that it is important. The use of low-penetration expanding full metal jacket (EFMJs) or frangible rounds does not induce enough penetration, so you are "wasting" energy. These rounds do dump all of their energy in a target, but their energy is spread out (Because of the small fragmenting particles or separated jackets) and not as effective. Over-penetration is bad, too, because the bullet will not transfer any energy.

So what about expansion? Cross sectional area of expanded JHPs of various calibers are not that different. The .6 inches a 9mm expands is not THAT different than the 1" or whatever a .45 expands to. Any of these will do, as long as they expand.

Conclusion: All of the "real" handgun calibers (9mm and above, I don't believe the .380 to be potent enough to achieve proper expansion and penetration) are the same when all things are equal. 124 +Ps penetrate just fine through heavy clothing, as do 147, 165, 180, and 230 gr.. Things do happen, like the OPs story about the 45 not going through a jacket. This is probably because of the hollow point cavity clogging or deflection while penetrating the clothing. Choose a gun, become proficient, and don't miss

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Originally Posted by C hawk Glock

With all due respect, everything you mention I have read in one form or another about every two months on DC. My question to you was why in the was someone wearing all that clothing you mention above in the deep south? :smile:

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It does get cold down here, too.

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Originally Posted by glockman10mm

Another " ballistically retarded question".

Make that two questions. I was trying to figure out that one also.

I suppose, based on popular assumption and ignorance, that my 158 weight bullets at 1000-1100 fps are " inadequate".
Any psychics in the audience? Someone get ahold of John Lennon and Oswald and tell them the 38 was inadequate so they can re join the party.

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While they are at it, maybe they could contact George Wallace about the 38...He was shot 5 times with a 38 and survived (although dissabled) but yet Bobby Kennedy was shot with a 22 revolver and was DRT.....Shot placement.

Just like in real estate it's all about location, location, location. If you can hit your target in a vital area consistently and penetrate the vital area deep enough then whether it's a .357, .40, 9mm, .380, .45, .451 Detonics, .50 AE it doesn't matter a whole lot. Consistently good shot placement and penetration is the key.

I've got 9mm 124gr NATO ball (a +P), Winchester Ranger 127gr +P+ and 124gr +P Gold Dots. I normally carry the NATO ball, but I know I can hit the vitals. So mega uber expanding JHP aren't completely necessary for my circumstances and level of skill and comfort. Your mileage may vary. Different ammo for different applications.

My dad was a mechanical engineer, he always told me "There is no replacement for cubic inches". He was absolutely correct. My perspective is limited like many of you here, I served in the Military, I was a cop in Fort Worth, Texas for 6 years and just retired from the US Border Patrol.

I have an attachment to the 45 emotionally, that's what my grandad carried in the Army and then as a cop, that's what I carried as an Army MP and its all American. I am a devoted follower of the 357 Magnum because I carried one for 15 years on duty and many more off duty. I have seen a very high number of people shot and killed with 357 magnums, bullets construction seems to be fairly unimportant with the 357 magnum. The 357 did not earn its reputation as a man-stopper from the 125 grain JHP, that was really a johnny come lately. I prefer 145-158 grain bullets in a 357 VS people. From what I saw on the street a 380/38/9mm all work about the same. Magnums are a different story, I saw a guy almost decapitated with a 44 mag, bullet entered the rear, hit the spinal column and bone fragments did the rest of the work (anecdotal but real).

Recoil is very subjective, we are all different, we all have different skill levels and different loads recoil differently in the same gun. I want a bullet that is going to stay the course and go as strait as can be where I aimed it without careening off of ribs. That is where magnum wheel-guns with heavy cast Keith type semi-wadcutters rule.

Semi-autos became the rage in police work in the 80's "because the bad guys had them" . The 9mm would not be what it is today without the work of the Illinois State Police. I have carried the .40 S&W since 1996, when they pried my L frame smith from my sweaty palms. The .40 is a good round and depending on the load used it mimics a 357 magnum or a 45 ACP. Too many people like to cherry pick loads to jive with their reality of how things work. The 38 Special +P 158 LSWC-HP still works from any barrel length.

The USBP conducted multiple tests because when we adopted a semi-auto handgun we wanted the same stopping power of the 357 magnum and to gain higher capacity. The original load was a 155 grain JHP at 1350 FPS. That round was smoking, unfortunately our guns (Beretta 96D's) lasted about 5000 rounds. It was soon downloaded to 1200-1250 FPS.
In going the Semi-auto route, we are compromising power for more higher capacity. I would rather face a fair shooter with a 9mm than a cool headed pro with a 38.

I feel for the OP's lack of shooting ability with the big bad 45 and suggest intensive range therapy to help. We have had to shoot weak handed in qualifications as long as I can remember, so its nothing new.

In going the Semi-auto route, we are compromising power for more higher capacity. I would rather face a fair shooter with a 9mm than a cool headed pro with a 38.

I feel for the OP's lack of shooting ability with the big bad 45 and suggest intensive range therapy to help. We have had to shoot weak handed in qualifications as long as I can remember, so its nothing new.[/QUOTE]

In miami we had the drug wars with the mac 10 thousands of rounds fired few dead, usually you would see one or two dead with one or two macs each and they were killed by a 44 or 45. It is the calm shooter who prevails.


City of Miami Police are the worst shots in the world unarmed perp fourty shots fired from two guns three hits! Where did the rest go??

They did live fire training at quantico when I was there you either got good or froze, they stopped because someone panicked and stood up, double tap Why? One 45 in the head and dead.Two 9mm mid mass and you may not get to fire the third.

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Originally Posted by mattbeals

Just like in real estate it's all about location, location, location. If you can hit your target in a vital area consistently and penetrate the vital area deep enough then whether it's a .357, .40, 9mm, .380, .45, .451 Detonics, .50 AE it doesn't matter a whole lot. Consistently good shot placement and penetration is the key.

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^^^ This.

I've seen a case where a perp encountered three officers in a shooting. Between them, none landed a good hit center-mass. A round to the head finally took him out of the fight after multiple peripheral hits. Shot placement under pressure is first and foremost.

When it comes down to it, the perp's distance, speed, movement, and cover along with lighting, weather, surroundings, bystanders, etc. will all have a much greater effect on ability to neutralize a threat than a 20% [gun/load/ballistics/break-out-the-popcorn argument] advantage. Whatever allows you to practice the best under a variety of circumstances will give you the greatest advantage.

Thus, when working within my budget constraints, I chose 9mm simply because it's a solid performing caliber that's economical to practice with, and I shoot well. If you don't have to buy your own stuff or have the body mass to shoot .454 accurately, well, I'm jealous. You're free to choose whatever works best for you in your situation. It was certainly reassuring to hear about the OP's experience and observations and for that, thank you sir.

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Originally Posted by swmft

In miami we had the drug wars with the mac 10 thousands of rounds fired few dead, usually you would see one or two dead with one or two macs each and they were killed by a 44 or 45. It is the calm shooter who prevails.

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sometimes its the calm one that prevails, but these dirtbags with macs shooting each other probably lost because of lack of skill, not necessarily lack of calm

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Originally Posted by swmft

double tap Why? One 45 in the head and dead.Two 9mm mid mass and you may not get to fire the third.

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to each their own, but I don't teach or support the double tap theory, I support shooting until the threat has stopped whether its one round or 18

and a 45 to the head and dead....only if it hits the right spot, any shot that hits a good spot in the head is better than 2 9mm mid mass that don't hit anything vital or CNS, thats not a knock on 9mm but rather a knock on poor shot placement

Everybody has an opinion and since this is a forum they are welcome to state said opinions. But doing so you open yourself up to be critiqued.......that is part of the keyboard cowboy mentality on most firearms forums. I can read between the lines and determine who is full of it and who has cred. Its not that hard really. I take everything I read here with a big grain of salt, everyone should be wise enough to do so. That being said even if I totally disagree with someones post I don't try to embarrass them or call them an idiot for the opinions they express. I may post an argument to their opinion if I feel the need to do so but they still have a right to be wrong. If you would not be man enough to say it to a man's face don't post it here.

Location, location, location... Whether it's a 9mm, .40 or .45 you have to have good shot placement. Head shots are great and all but it's a small target to hit under stress. I agree with 64zebra, keep shooting until the threat stops. That doesn't always mean dead, just no longer a threat. I was told by my instructor "Keep shooting until they stop twitching. Ammo is cheap you aren't."