9mm Luger via a LEO's perspective

This is a discussion on 9mm Luger via a LEO's perspective within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I just want to say thank you to you for putting your life on the line to keep mine safe. I am reasonably sure I ...

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Thread: 9mm Luger via a LEO's perspective

  1. #151
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    I just want to say thank you to you for putting your life on the line to keep mine safe. I am reasonably sure I know of the city you speak and I live in a nearby suburb so I thank you. I also know you guys don't get the respect you deserve. I swapped my 45acp for 9mm mainly because I can shoot faster, it holds more ammo, and is cheaper to practice. In our city, where it is hot 90% of the year, I think 9mm is more than adequate.

    Again, thanks for patrolling our streets. And please feel free to use your 9mm to rid our streets of would be thugs if you get the chance!

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  3. #152
    Member Array jasgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    The USBP conducted multiple tests because when we adopted a semi-auto handgun we wanted the same stopping power of the 357 magnum and to gain higher capacity. The original load was a 155 grain JHP at 1350 FPS. That round was smoking, unfortunately our guns (Beretta 96D's) lasted about 5000 rounds. It was soon downloaded to 1200-1250 FPS.
    Did the USBP trial the .357Sig too? If they did, what was the opinion? Being a .357Sig fan, I'm kind of curious.

  4. #153
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasgo View Post
    Did the USBP trial the .357Sig too? If they did, what was the opinion? Being a .357Sig fan, I'm kind of curious.
    I Don't know. The tests were conducted in the mid 90's I am not sure if the 357 Sig. was even available for testing as it was born in 1994. Some of the criteria was barrier penetration as alot the USBP shootings are around vehicles and/or significant distances.

  5. #154
    Member Array rockymtnnut's Avatar
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    I believe in carrying what you want and I don't have a caliber bias, so please take what I say with a grain of salt.. I have found that when a shooter chooses to downsize a round with softer recoil, it is for the sole reason to improve their Score on paper. It only makes sense. The problem with that way of thinking is paper targets obviously do not shoot back. The whole shot placement argument in a heated moment during combat is wishful thinking. This is upheld by the FBI statistics that states expect a 20% hit rate in a gun fight. A center mass shot placement is a little more realistic. So how is a mildly softer recoilling pistol round a better choice when things are up close and personal?
    What is ideal is a massively destructive wound channel not shot placement. Do we really think that we are going to square off get in a good stance and apply all of our marksmenship principles when rounds are comming our way ??? It's point shooting at best until we get cover.
    I carry all three at times so I am not caliber biased but its hard to argue the facts and statistics of the good ole .45 or even the .40 s&w. When it happens ,it happens quick. Just my 2 cents.....

  6. #155
    New Member Array CDWolfe's Avatar
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    We train for every conceivable scenario, and even then it won't be enough. As I have stated, I made the change from a .45 to the 9mm because I have greater control with a 9mm, especially with off-hand shooting. If my "statistics" only give me a 20% chance of landing a hit, I don't want it to be a "wishful, hope and pray I make the shot" hit with something I am not as comfortable with. I want every advantage I can get.

    That and people continue to miss where the Federal HST 124g +P 9mm Luger rounds venture into the .45 ACP expansion territory. Best of both worlds.

    Edit: alot of .40 and .45 stats are outdated, old school thinking, and are biased. Modern testing, including our's, has very little difference between the big 3 service calibers (9mm, 40, 45).

  7. #156
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    Why was the .40 originally developed for Law Enforcement?

    Fill in the blanks.

    Because Law Enforcement felt that the semi-automatic chambered in ______mm was proving to be inadequate.
    Because Law Enforcement wanted a larger caliber than the ______mm with more effective stopping power than the ______mm cartridge.
    And it was believed that the .40 would be more controllable than the .45 ACP (which was felt that some officers would not like or be able to handle) the .45 ACP and that the .40 would be more effective on the street at stopping bad guys quicker than the existing ______mm.

    Hey...I'm not calling it right or wrong & I'm not passing judgment on the "9" but, I am just stating the documented historical fact as to why the .40 even exists today.

    I'm sitting right at the camp fire at the "shot placement" camp-site stoking the fire.
    Shot placement reigns supreme.
    But the idea that the "9" (or the .380 LONG Cartridge) ~~~> is SUPERIOR to the .40 or the .45 ACP is just a stroke job feel~good~ism.
    There is a reason WHY the "9" has "less felt recoil" than a .40 or a .45 acp and it's exactly the same reason why the .32 ACP or the .25 ACP would have "less felt recoil" than the "9" given the same size/weight firearm.

    I'm ALL FOR "Carry Whatever Caliber You Want To Carry" & Practice enough to make your projectiles go where they need to go to end the immediate threat.
    But, I absolutely hate 9mm superiority "faster shot to shot recovery less recoil" testimonials.

    Where I DO concede that the 9 is superior to the .45 is the cost per cartridge. So if that equates to more affordable practice and more bullets out the muzzle - then that is always a very good thing.
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  8. #157
    Member Array rockymtnnut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDWolfe View Post
    We train for every conceivable scenario, and even then it won't be enough. As I have stated, I made the change from a .45 to the 9mm because I have greater control with a 9mm, especially with off-hand shooting. If my "statistics" only give me a 20% chance of landing a hit, I don't want it to be a "wishful, hope and pray I make the shot" hit with something I am not as comfortable with. I want every advantage I can get.

    That and people continue to miss where the Federal HST 124g +P 9mm Luger rounds venture into the .45 ACP expansion territory. Best of both worlds.

    Edit: alot of .40 and .45 stats are outdated, old school thinking, and are biased. Modern testing, including our's, has very little difference between the big 3 service calibers (9mm, 40, 45).
    Fair enough ..I am a believer that a small caliber sometimes expand but a large caliber never shrinks. On a lighter note I love the hst rounds. I myself carry a .40 . Peace....

  9. #158
    New Member Array CDWolfe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Why was the .40 originally developed for Law Enforcement?

    Fill in the blanks.

    Because Law Enforcement felt that the semi-automatic chambered in ______mm was inadequate.
    Because Law Enforcement wanted a larger caliber than the ______mm with more effective stopping power than the smaller ______mm. And it was believed that the .40 would be more controllable than the .45 ACP (which was felt that some officers would not be able to handle) and the .40 would be more effective on the street at stopping bad guys quicker than the ______mm.

    Hey...I'm not calling it right or wrong & I'm not passing judgment on the "9" but, I am just stating the documented historical fact as to why the .40 even exists today.

    I'm sitting right at the camp fire at the "shot placement" camp-site stoking the fire.
    Shot placement reigns supreme.
    But the idea that the "9" (or the .380 LONG Cartridge) ~~~> is SUPERIOR to the .40 or the .45 ACP is just a stroke job feel~good~ism.
    There is a reason WHY the "9" has "less felt recoil" than a .40 or a .45 acp and it's exactly the same reason why the .32 ACP or the .25 ACP would have "less felt recoil" than the "9" given the same size/weight firearm.

    I'm ALL FOR "Carry Whatever Caliber You Want To Carry" & Practice enough to make your projectiles go where they need to go to end the immediate threat.
    But, I absolutely hate 9mm superiority "faster shot to shot recovery less recoil" testimonials.

    Where I DO concede that the 9 is superior to the .45 is the cost per cartridge. So if that equates to more affordable practice and more bullets out the muzzle - then that is always a very good thing.
    Because of a 1988 (quarter of a century ago) Miami shootout with the FBI who were using 9mm BALL AMMO, and wanted something bigger than a 9mm in BALL AMMO. A modern HP levels the playing field.

  10. #159
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    SO.............What ??? will I ALSO admit that I did (unintentionally) omit in my Post# 156.

    The 9mm IS a more effective cartridge NOW than it was back then BECAUSE there have been great strides in "Personal Defense" cartridge development & bullet design since then that have made the 9mm a much more effective cartridge.

    But, (keep in mind) that those same amazing advances have taken place for all other Personal Defense calibers as well.

    So...bottom line...carry what you will actually CARRY and not leave at home under your underwear in the top dresser drawer and make your shots count.

  11. #160
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    Because of a 1988 (quarter of a century ago) Miami shootout with the FBI who were using 9mm BALL AMMO, and wanted something bigger than a 9mm in BALL AMMO. A modern HP levels the playing field.

    That is also a true statement of fact.

    You will get no argument from me that the "9" has got lots better and far more effective.

    My only point being that nothing has been done to the "9" that has not been done to the .40 or .45 w/ regard to projectile technology.

    I've carried and shot single stack .45 for many moons and (for myself) see no valid reason to switch over to either the .40 or the 9 though I can see some advantage with regard to (in gun) capacity it's not enough to sway me...because that is really no advantage that a fast magazine chance can't accomplish.

    My .380 LONG quip is my ages old classic and harmless way of giving a little Internet poke at the "buzzing little bee" lovers and it's not intended to get anybody really pissed.

    Folks here know how I feel about caliber (in general) and shot placement importance.

    I'm perfectly happy if a member wants to carry a .38 SPL J wheelie with the newer low recoil offerings as long as they work on getting bullets out there where they need to go.

  12. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDWolfe View Post
    Because of a 1988 (quarter of a century ago) Miami shootout with the FBI who were using 9mm BALL AMMO, and wanted something bigger than a 9mm in BALL AMMO. A modern HP levels the playing field.
    I think you are mistaken they were using high velocity jacketed hollow points not ball. But without argument 45 killing bad guys for over a century, and it keeps getting better.

  13. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDWolfe View Post
    Because of a 1988 (quarter of a century ago) Miami shootout with the FBI who were using 9mm BALL AMMO, and wanted something bigger than a 9mm in BALL AMMO. A modern HP levels the playing field.
    Hey hey now QK... some of the people who posted weren't even born when that shootout occured. geesh, not like a couple of "old farts" like us... hehehehehe.
    Thought it was 1986 when that happened...
    1986 FBI Miami shootout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    FBI-Miami Shootout
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  14. #163
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    So what do you want in a 9mm designed for stopping power?

    1. At least 12" of penetration.
    2. Consistent expansion (.60 is nice, .70 is better).
    3. Non-separation of bullet/jacket.
    4. Being accurate whether it is 2 handed or 1 handed shooting...PoA = PoI.
    No offense, but a 9mm that can expand to .60 is pretty rare. .70 is almost unheard of.

  15. #164
    VIP Member Array Rob99VMI04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Because of a 1988 (quarter of a century ago) Miami shootout with the FBI who were using 9mm BALL AMMO, and wanted something bigger than a 9mm in BALL AMMO. A modern HP levels the playing field.

    That is also a true statement of fact.

    You will get no argument from me that the "9" has got lots better and far more effective.

    My only point being that nothing has been done to the "9" that has not been done to the .40 or .45 w/ regard to projectile technology.

    I've carried and shot single stack .45 for many moons and (for myself) see no valid reason to switch over to either the .40 or the 9 though I can see some advantage with regard to (in gun) capacity it's not enough to sway me...because that is really no advantage that a fast magazine chance can't accomplish.

    My .380 LONG quip is my ages old classic and harmless way of giving a little Internet poke at the "buzzing little bee" lovers and it's not intended to get anybody really pissed.

    Folks here know how I feel about caliber (in general) and shot placement importance.

    I'm perfectly happy if a member wants to carry a .38 SPL J wheelie with the newer low recoil offerings as long as they work on getting bullets out there where they need to go.

    I know this is like beating dead horse but I'm going to beat it a little longer.

    From a historicle point of view, capabilities have proven the 9mm/22 has accomplished something the 45/40 has never come close to.

    I know most people will take offense to me even mentioning it, however, when one is on the fence "is a 9 effective. It proves it's point.

    Nobody should feel inadequate for carrying the wonder 9.
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  16. #165
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    Archie, can you please post your credentials? CD Wolfe has pretty much told us about himself but all you tell us about you is that you were in federal law enforcement? Where? FBI,DEA, Department of Agriculture, where? How many shootings do you have under your belt? How many dead bodies or homicides have you handled or investigated? I'm not trying to stir the pot or slam you but I think that revealing that information will lend more credibility to your arguement.

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