9mm Luger via a LEO's perspective - Page 12

9mm Luger via a LEO's perspective

This is a discussion on 9mm Luger via a LEO's perspective within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by CDWolfe Because of a 1988 (quarter of a century ago) Miami shootout with the FBI who were using 9mm BALL AMMO, and ...

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  1. #166
    Member Array Bulldog7972s's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDWolfe View Post
    Because of a 1988 (quarter of a century ago) Miami shootout with the FBI who were using 9mm BALL AMMO, and wanted something bigger than a 9mm in BALL AMMO. A modern HP levels the playing field.
    IIRC, the FBI were using Winchester Silvertips that day. The Silvertips did what it was supposed to do. It penetrated to the level of what it was designed for which what we all now know is not enough. They opened wonderfully but just did not penetrate deep enough.
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  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDWolfe View Post
    Because of a 1988 (quarter of a century ago) Miami shootout with the FBI who were using 9mm BALL AMMO, and wanted something bigger than a 9mm in BALL AMMO. A modern HP levels the playing field.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog7972s View Post
    IIRC, the FBI were using Winchester Silvertips that day. The Silvertips did what it was supposed to do. It penetrated to the level of what it was designed for which what we all now know is not enough. They opened wonderfully but just did not penetrate deep enough.
    Bulldog is correct; it was a 115gr Silvertip that stopped just short of Platt's heart. Had the FBI been using ball that day (AS CDWolfe incorrectly claims), the fight likely would have ended sooner with the FMJ round likely punching through his heart.
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  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
    Bulldog is correct; it was a 115gr Silvertip that stopped just short of Platt's heart. Had the FBI been using ball that day (AS CDWolfe incorrectly claims), the fight likely would have ended sooner with the FMJ round likely punching through his heart.
    Close, but not quite. The 9mm silvertip did in fact hit Platts heart. Platt being a former Green Beret was one tough SOB and was fighting with everything he had. The fight going bad was not a fault of the bullet, it was a fault of tactics and marksmanship.

    I keep hearing about 1/4 century ago, news flash, if it worked 25 years ago it will still work today. Archie has not responded, so I will. He and I share very similar views as to what works and what does not.

    I was a US Army MP for three years. A Police Officer in Fort Worth, Texas for 6 years, and a US Border Patrol agent for 23 years. I cannot count the shootings, stabbings, auto accidents I have investigated or witnessed. I cannot give you a "body count" because I never kept score. I have never had to shoot anyone, but I cannot begin to count the number of times I have drawn down on someone that was armed and ready to do the same to me. I did not return fire when I had no good target, or where a miss would have killed someone other than my target. the most memorable was pulling up to a domestic at 0 dark 30 and seeing #1 Brother hacking on #2 Brother with a pick axe and a whole lot of little faces looking out the picture window behind them. I know what works and what does not work, because I was immersed in it, my life depended on it.

    A 357 Magnum WORKS, a 12 gauge slug WORKS have a nice day. Face it guys, a handgun, any handgun is a compromise. Today, every SD hollow point is designed to expand and penetrate in 12" to 18" of jello with a certain velocity envelope (thanks FBI). Great, but in order to perform equitably a small diameter bullet MUST expand to act like a bigger bullet. I generally prefer a heavy for caliber bullet, except for the 40, I like 155's.

  4. #169
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    The 9mm silvertip did in fact hit Platts heart.
    Not according to the Dade County Medical Examiner.

    Page 3, The Dade County Medical Examiner Department, Miami, Florida.
    Name. Platt, Michael L ... April 11, 1986 ... 10:00 pm ... Case No. 86-0969
    GUNSHOT WOUND TO THE RIGHT ARM AND CHEST.

    A gunshot entrance wound is located on the posterolateral aspect of the right arm, 17 inches below the top of the head and 8 inches below the right shoulder. It is composed of a 3/8 inch in diameter circular hole which has a 1/16 inch uniform marginal abrasion. It is not surrounded by soot, stippling, or muzzle imprint. It passes through the triceps muscle and exits near the axilla and then re-enters the adjacent right lateral chest wall, continuing through the subcutaneous tissues and muscles along the right posterolateral thorax. A markedly deformed, partially jacketed, medium caliber projectile is recovered from the right posterolateral chest wall just beneath the scapula. It is not associated with any visceral injury. The projectile is placed in an evidence envelope. Itís direction is from right to left
    Definition of Visceral (MedicineNet, Inc)
    Visceral: Referring to the viscera, the internal organs of the body, specifically those within the chest (as the heart or lungs) or abdomen (as the liver, pancreas or intestines).
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  5. #170
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    Actually 40Bob, I think you are closer to CDwolf than you are Archie. And I agree with you. Handguns are a compromise and I think that's what CDWolfe was saying. So if they are all a compromise and perform pretty close to each other, why not go with the 9mm.

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by OD* View Post
    Not according to the Dade County Medical Examiner.

    Page 3, The Dade County Medical Examiner Department, Miami, Florida.
    Name. Platt, Michael L ... April 11, 1986 ... 10:00 pm ... Case No. 86-0969


    Definition of Visceral (MedicineNet, Inc)
    Visceral: Referring to the viscera, the internal organs of the body, specifically those within the chest (as the heart or lungs) or abdomen (as the liver, pancreas or intestines).
    Hmm, I guess I was wrong.

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulldog7972s View Post
    Actually 40Bob, I think you are closer to CDwolf than you are Archie. And I agree with you. Handguns are a compromise and I think that's what CDWolfe was saying. So if they are all a compromise and perform pretty close to each other, why not go with the 9mm.
    Why not?

    Its a compromise, do I take a S&W 44 magnum with 6 shots of atomic death that will stop anything and take 4 seconds to get 6 aimed shots or the 9mm Glock with 16 shots of well, I hope it works that I can fire 10 aimed shots in 2.5 seconds. Every aspect is a compromise.

    A friend of mine once had to shoot a BIG angry man coming at him with a chainsaw, what would you want to be carrying? What do you want to be holding in your hand when time stops. I will carry the most powerful gun I can conceal well and shoot well.

    The top rated bullets perform closely when everything works as planned. Carry the gun that you shoot the best, with a load that functions every time. Perform perfect practice and hone your skills. It has been said that the bullet is 12% of the equation. Tactics and marksmanship are what is going to save the day. If you can keep your head when the world around you goes pear shaped you will have a much better chance of going home. Training allows you to have options and create plans of action.

    In all seriousness, a 9mm is fine loaded with modern HP bullets. Its about shot placement and the bullets penetrating deep enough to do the job without deflecting. I tend to like bullets that penetrate deeply. I cannot accurately fire my Glock 40 as fast as I can a 9mm Glock, but I will stick with the 40.
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  8. #173
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    I agree 40Bob which is why I carry a Sig 229 40S&W. But I wouldn't feel undergunned if I carried my 228 either.

  9. #174
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    Excellent post, and welcome to the forum

    Until now Iíve carried Federal 147 HST in the G17 and Federal 124 Hydro shok in the G26

    However, I wanted a round to carry on duty in the G17 and off duty in the G26, whose recoil was conservative enough for repair fire, yet was capable of doing enough tissue damage as well as penetrating at least 14 inches.

    Speer Gold Dot 9mm 115 gr Gel test - YouTube

    Check out this Speer Gold Dot 115 test
    Iíve order several boxes to try out..

  10. #175
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    I have seen three people shot with 9mm. Two DRT, one not happy at all. 9mm is fine. Shoot center mass, repeat as needed.
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  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    Close, but not quite. The 9mm silvertip did in fact hit Platts heart. Platt being a former Green Beret was one tough SOB and was fighting with everything he had. The fight going bad was not a fault of the bullet, it was a fault of tactics and marksmanship.

    I keep hearing about 1/4 century ago, news flash, if it worked 25 years ago it will still work today. Archie has not responded, so I will. He and I share very similar views as to what works and what does not.

    I was a US Army MP for three years. A Police Officer in Fort Worth, Texas for 6 years, and a US Border Patrol agent for 23 years. I cannot count the shootings, stabbings, auto accidents I have investigated or witnessed. I cannot give you a "body count" because I never kept score. I have never had to shoot anyone, but I cannot begin to count the number of times I have drawn down on someone that was armed and ready to do the same to me. I did not return fire when I had no good target, or where a miss would have killed someone other than my target. the most memorable was pulling up to a domestic at 0 dark 30 and seeing #1 Brother hacking on #2 Brother with a pick axe and a whole lot of little faces looking out the picture window behind them. I know what works and what does not work, because I was immersed in it, my life depended on it.

    A 357 Magnum WORKS, a 12 gauge slug WORKS have a nice day. Face it guys, a handgun, any handgun is a compromise. Today, every SD hollow point is designed to expand and penetrate in 12" to 18" of jello with a certain velocity envelope (thanks FBI). Great, but in order to perform equitably a small diameter bullet MUST expand to act like a bigger bullet. I generally prefer a heavy for caliber bullet, except for the 40, I like 155's.
    Platt was an Army Ranger, not SF. Not that it matters, they are all bad ass.

  12. #177
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    Thank you for posting and welcome to the forum. As we all know handguns suck for fight stoppers. Find the best ammo for your favorite blaster that works and is accurate. And of course fire till the threat is eliminated. Stay safe and carry on.

  13. #178
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    This thread is 18 months old...

    But the OP does make a point. After all, he has chosen the same 9mm carry ammo that I have, so he must be right.
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  14. #179
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    My theory on that goes like this; We cant get scenes like the opening seen from "Matt Dillion", or "Gun smoke" out of our heads. AND, to make it even worse, most of us pride ourselves on being good shots. We practice and train to become so.

    So, the mind might "plan on" stopping someone with a well placed shot. As we all know, though, reality is a bit more complicated than all that.

    I am really amazed after watching youtube videos of police shootouts where the perp has taken GOOD HITS, and keeps on fighting back after being hit way more times than most any of us ever thought about having to shoot someone.

    Quote Originally Posted by multistage View Post
    I always wondered why folks got wrapped around the axle with the "one shot stop" concept. If I ever get in a bind, target will get two rounds, at minimum. Funny how things swing. The much maligned 9mm is making an impressive comeback.

    Many thanks for your post. It further validates a few theories I subscribe to: 9mm is certainly enough, and one round fired certainly isn't.

    Welcome to the forum.

  15. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I think those of us in LE see pretty much the same thing over the years, all of which doesn't answer any questions as to caliber choice or design of bullet.

    I agree with the 9mm as a good round, particularly in the heavy loadings.

    What I don't like is the assumption that one who uses a bigger caliber may not get as many hits on target. This is purely a training issue. More hits on target is something that we hear of alot these days, mostly perpetrated by fast shooting, low drag, so called defensive combat schools, who in actuality, bear little resemblemce with the typical civillian self defense needs of today. Actually, they are conducted more like police/ military needs.

    The reality of all of this translates into everyday Sam and Suzy Citizen, reading and taking all of this in, and feel that if they are not armed with something resembling a military or police sidearm, will not make it back from the grocery store, or run out of ammo before they can get to their car at Wally World.

    It is a shame, that so many have fallen into this BS. I believe that just about every single person would be just as well off armed with a good 38spl revolver, loaded with some standard velocity heavy lead swc bullets, that they could shoot cheaply, and shoot proficiently , with an emphasis on making the first shot count.

    Many people just buy these high tech , hi cap bottom feeders because they just like guns. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with big bullets either.

    But God help us, when we allow people to believe if they don't have this gun, in that caliber that they are not well armed.
    and

    I have been following this thread with great interest. I myself am "Sam Citizen". I once fell in that trap of thinking I had to carry something resembling a military or police sidearm. Then I got to thinking, "Wait a minute. How much is my life like a real police officer's?"

    I have seldom lived in high-crime areas or had to be around them. When a crime is happening, I am not sworn to run toward it. I don't make routine traffic stops and have to hope my bullet will penetrate auto body sheet metal and glass in case someone from inside a car wants to kill me. I don't imagine myself having to get behind cover and trade rounds to keep a bad guy at bay while I wait for backup to arrive. It is not my job to capture people and handcuff them. So do I really need a service semi-auto and a caliber just because Sam and Suzy Law Enforcement carry them?

    It's funny. Let me ask you folks who may be reading this post. When you start shopping for a personal automobile, do you look for one that has a piece of plexiglass between the front and back seats? If my car doesn't have to be cop-like, do I need my protection piece to be cop-like? Maybe, maybe not.

    What I actually need is a practical lifesaving emergency tool that I can shoot competently so that if I find myself in the unfortunate position of having to shoot someone, I can do so accurately and competently. Chances are, if I have to pull a roscoe on someone, my situation may likely be different than what police often contend with.

    The comment about private citizens and .38 Special intrigued me, too....mainly because I have seen it other places than here. I wonder sometimes if average people would be better off taking the extra money they spend on a semi-auto and spending it instead on training ammunition. And how many long, protracted gunfights (the kind of situation a high-capacity semi is favored for) does an average private citizen find himself in, anyway? I'll tell you what- if we were all carryin' what Elliot Ness and the old boys once did, we'd sure be makin' those shots count, huh?
    Nix, Kilowatt3 and shockwave like this.

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