9mm Luger via a LEO's perspective - Page 4

9mm Luger via a LEO's perspective

This is a discussion on 9mm Luger via a LEO's perspective within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Dinosaur? Hell yes I'm a dinosaur too! And proud of it. It has taken me years to get comfortable in my own skin, having spent ...

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  1. #46
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Dinosaur? Hell yes I'm a dinosaur too! And proud of it. It has taken me years to get comfortable in my own skin, having spent countless $$ to make sure I had the latest greatest and most popular or exotic gun, and the most updated designer ammo that was guaranteed to be the better than the last umpteen end all offerings in bullet design.

    Through my satisfying myself with the effects of common simple bullet designs on medium and large game over the years, I have decided for myself with no reservations, that effectiveness of ammo on caliber has more to do with proper penetration and placement than energy figures and flowery expanded bullets.

    Being a dinosaur has it's advantages. It means you can finally just be happy with the things you like, secure in your knowledge that it will work for you, and be done with the search for giants, mythical creatures, and magic bullets and calibers.
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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    WARNING: Pot stirring ahead.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

    Best Choices for Self Defense Ammunition

  3. #48
    Member Array true grit's Avatar
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    I will keep my 22LR thank you. More people are DRT with this caliber than any other.
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  4. #49
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    I'll tell you why I'm moving towards 9mm. Price of ammo & magazine capacity.

    As far as which caliber is better in a fight? I don't give a hoot if you're using 9mm, .40 cal, .45 ACP, .357 mag or .38 spl. In the scheme of things, any one of those calibers with decent, modern designed factory ammunition has about as much chance at stopping someone as the next one. And each one has about the same amount of chance of failing to stop as the next one.

    I shoot my .45 ACP's about as good as 9mm when I'm spending time practice with them. I shoot 9mm better and quicker than my .40 cal G-23. And in the scheme of seeing things from "the big picture," I don't think one will make a lick of difference than the other in a real life gunfight. Because there is always going to be some modicum of Karma, Luck, & "The Murphy factor" in any given situation. So in the scheme of things, there's really no way to quantify such data.

    So, for me... 9mm is a bit cheaper to shoot, and generally speaking has a higher magazine capacity. So, I've pretty much transitioned to 9mm for EDC (M&P 9 full size or the XD9sc). For a BUG, usually an LCP in .380 but also the SP-101 rides back-up from time to time.

    I'll still keep my .45ACP's and probably my .40 cal just because variety is nice and I can be somewhat moody from time to time.
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    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  5. #50
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdprof View Post
    Whoa, back up the math train. You are simply adding the diameters, which might be a valid comparison if each hit was right next to the other, making a nice perforation pattern. But, the area of those (overall size of holes) still favors the two .45 shots. Remember the the old PI*r^2 thing? Three 9mm at .70 have total area of 1.16 sq/in, while the two .45 at .90 have a total area of 1.27 sq/in.

    That puts us back into the numbers game which really is immaterial. I think a BG bleeding from three holes is better than just two holes. And hey, the 9mm pistol usually lets you put a lot more holes in the guy before needing to reload.

    Sorry, the math teacher in me just couldn't let that go by.
    Equally sorry, the engineer in me isn't going to let that go by either. Exsanguination rate is proportional to the surface areas of the cylinders swept by the bullets. More damaged surface area provides more disrupted blood vessels for the blood to leak out of. So we care about both disrupted volume (damaged and destroyed tissue volume) and damaged surface area.

    Exsanguination is a second choice behind a solid hit on the central nervous system.

    OK, we now return you to the thread already in progress.

  6. #51
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    "[Some of his claims, like my .40 S&W pistol recoils more than a .45 ACP, are just flat wrong.]"
    Ohh Archie, Some would disagree with Mr. Expert Gunfighter/Preacher, On that statement there ; ) PS Me being one
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  7. #52
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    It's a matter of perception but I just don't see the .40 S&W as having such fearsome recoil. It seems mild-mannered and pleasant to shoot to this dinosaur. At least it's been so in any of several different .40 pistols I've had the privilege of using. It's recoil seems distinctly milder than a .45 ACP pistol using full-power 230 grain ball ammo. It's one of the best handgun cartridges I've never owned. One of these days I'll get around to picking up a good single action automatic in .40 S&W.

    There's not a thing wrong with 9mm but it is a cartridge that I greatly enjoy loathing simply because it's been bally-hooed and blown out of proportion so thoroughly since the very early 1980s. I have four 9mms around here and handload and shoot a decent amount of 9mm ammo over the course of a year. It's a adequate, middling sort of round but is hugely overrated, looming large in the minds of millions of shooters while it really offers terminal ballistics no better than the best .38 Special loads. In fact the 9mm is probably the single most overrated handgun cartridge ever popularized. 9mm's main attribute is the automatic pistols that will hold a whole lot of 'em. The cartridge itself is nothing special. It offers mild recoil that is controllable by most shooters along with perfectly adequate power.

    While there's nothing wrong with 9mm, I like the looks of both the .40 S&W and the .45 ACP in concealable automatics better.
    gunthorp, OD* and pignut like this.
    Charter Member of the DC .41 LC Society

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  8. #53
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    Opinions are only that. Just kill the BG until he's DRT (just had to use that).
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archie View Post
    In point of fact, the Coonan and Desert Eagle notwithstanding, the .357 Magnum round is the best of all revolver rounds made. With the possible exception of the .44 Special - shine it's light on me!

    You will note I did stipulate 'semi-automatic pistol', did I not? Of course, there are more revolvers that will fire .45 ACP than autos that will fire .357 Magnum.

    Seriously, Gottab, I would - and have, and still do - take a proper loaded .357 Magnum (145 to 160 grain bullets in either jacketed hollowpoint or simple SWC lead at reasonably full charges) for defense without a qualm. I also have a S&W Second Model Hand Ejector in .44 Special that I trust. It's a little large for concealment, but it depends on what I'm wearing.
    Yes sir you did, and I probably should have clarified my position in regards to the "Auto" vs "Revolver" in my original post.

    Being the numbers guy that I am, I was speaking directly to the semi auto "Sig 357 magnum" round itself and not the revolver 357 Magnum; both of which out perform the standard pressure and even the +p .45 ACP round BTW, at least by the numbers that is. Is there any real world value to one over the other, I have no idea as I only have two .45 ACP semi autos, one is a G36 and the other is a Kimber Ultra Carry and no firearm chambered in Sig .357 magnum. As for the effectiveness of one over the other I will have to differ that to the experts such as yourself and some of DC's other members, and I do mean that with all due respect to all involved.

    For me, I prefer the 9mm and .38 special as my carry rounds of choice. You see, I am also of the mindset that either the 9mm or the .38 special in a heavy load will get the BG tagged and bagged, if I can put the round where it needs to go. My original post was a little tongue and cheek and wasn't meant to disrespect you at all, but I can see where you could have easily have taken it as a smarta.. statement. Truth be known, I have a great deal of respect for all our first responders here at DC both active and retired; it's also not my intention to chafe anyone's ego, your's included.



    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." – Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." – Thomas Jefferson

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    It's a adequate, middling sort of round but is hugely overrated, looming large in the minds of millions of shooters while it really offers terminal ballistics no better than the best .38 Special loads.
    I need to stop you right there. Bullet technology has come a long way since the 1988 Miami shootout. For starters, let's compare 2 of the most widely used premium cartridges by law enforcement today: Speer Gold Dot 230g JHP .45 ACP and the Federal HST 124g +P JHP 9mm.

    You can check out Youtube videos of both of these in various tests. What most tests will show is that the GD .45 has consistent expansion in the ballpark of .75" through denim and into gel. No jacket separation, excellent penetration, very reliable. The HST 9mm also comes out with expansion rates that hover around the .70"-.75" mark on the exact same tests, without jacket separation and penetration 12" or beyond. As a matter of fact, these are the numbers that we have gotten in our own lab tests. This is obviously far better than your claim of "no better than the best .38 Special loads."

    I am not trying to call you out or put you on the spot, but modern technology has leveled much of the playing field. The data is there for anyone to research. Either one of the above mentioned cartridges is an excellent choice and will get the job done. Keep a few things in mind:

    1. No pistol round will knock a man down. They won't spin you around, and they won't blow arms/legs off. The term to use today is stopping power.
    2. Military stories of 9mm vs .45 are not a good source of comparison because the military can't use JHP. They are stuck using ball ammo, and yes in that scenario .45 > 9mm.

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  11. #56
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    CDWolfe, the 9mm still does not offer anything over the 38spl, other than hi capacity handguns so chambered.

    The point that bmcgilvray made is absolutely correct. Compare any bullet you like, for instance 9mm Gold dot or 38sPl Gold Dot, and the ballistics of the 9mm are no better than the 38spl.

    As a matter of fact, the 38spl remains supreme due to it's larger powder capacity, and ability to fire heavier bullets of any design without feeding issues. In a stout framed gun, the 38spl can be handloaded to 38-44 velocities that are well into 357 magnum territory. And one would have to be ballistically retarded to argue the 9mm compares to the 357 magnum.

    Load that 38 with 5.4 grns of Unique under a 160 weight Keith bullet and it will make ANY 9mm loading look like a " pop " gun. And that, is a fact.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  12. #57
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    Allow me to apply my post-scalpel here a bit, if you abide turn-about as fair play…

    Quote Originally Posted by Archie View Post
    No one whizzed in my Wheaties. However, I take very serious exception to someone pretending to have expertise and then issuing nonsense. Especially when the nonsense will get my people injured or killed. You see, I've worked for Officer Wolfe's older brother. Or someone who could pass for his older brother.
    Are you suggesting that anyone not armed with a .45 ACP will cause people to be injured or killed, whereas if the had been armed with a .45 ACP those injuries/deaths would have been prevented? I’m very curious as to how one might reach such an absolute determination…

    What Officer Wolfe expressed in his original posting is merely his opinion, padded with the veneer of being a real police officer. He writes as if to set all of us ignernt people right, and does not present any serious facts or evidence to sustain his claims. Some of his claims, like my .40 S&W pistol recoils more than a .45 ACP, are just flat wrong.
    Everything you have expressed is merely your personal opinion, though stated as FACT, and padded with your veneer of being a former police officer who prides himself on refusing to learn anything not taught 20+ years ago. Which is more valid?

    Also, the average muzzle energy of the .40S&W is around 150 ft/lbs higher than the average muzzle energy of the .45 ACP. Please provide the physics you have employed to determine that there is no way for the round with the higher energy on one end to not have higher energy on the other end…

    Did anyone notice that? Did anyone read my entire post, other than Glockman10mm? Did anyone read Officer Wolfe's? He presents 'observations' which are rather slanted views from a very limited perspective. No argument, no logic, no chain of thought. I'm not quibbling over his grammar, I'm bothered by his lack of observation and articulation. And - sorry to sound picky - he uses phrases he does not understand. (Be brave someone, look up the definition of 'point blank'.)
    I read it, but I dismissed everything you said out of hand as soon as you claimed the .45ACP was "the best" semi-auto round ever to have existed. "The best" is a matter of circumstance, and depends on far too many variables for anyone to claim, ever, that one round is "the best" across all spectra and in every situation. Anyone with the abject lack of humility required to make statements like that – coupled with all the other condescension and insulting language – merits very little respect for their opinions, as far as I’m concerned.

    And yes, he misstated the ranges at which his agency qualifies. That hardly makes anything and everything he says invalid. And yes, also, the true definition of point blank has been wholly eclipsed by the “commonly accepted” definition, but I doubt that more than a handful of us here – on a forum devoted to such things – knew the true definition without looking it up. Again, hardly cause for personal attacks.

    I have preached the doctrine of good solid hits for years. Nothing will replace proper shooting. However, Officer Wolfe implies the only way to get good solid hits to revert to a lesser caliber. Sorry, that will not do. High capacity will not do. The .45 ACP he gave up on - rather than practice and learn better - wasn't magic and neither is the 9x19 he carries now because he thinks it will make him a better shooter. It won't, by the way.
    But, wait…isn’t the .45 ACP “the best?” Isn’t that as close to magic as we can hope for? After all, it’s “the best.” It’s amazing that so many individuals, police departments, federal agencies, militaries, criminals, and others who routinely use pistols as part of their daily life have missed this obvious fact! Surely, after reading your post, they will all see the error of their ways and change over immediately. After all, who would knowingly choose anything other than “the best?”

    I am a dinosaur. I wear that title with honor. Being a dinosaur means I know how to shoot the rounds I've got, rather than plan a fast reload so I can blaze away some more. Being a dinosaur means I've learned from older dinosaurs, and not the current crop of training 'experts' who ignore all the hard learned lessons us old dinosaurs learned.
    That’s one definition. Another might be that a “dinosaur” is too lazy, self-righteous, or otherwise emotionally invested in their own opinions to look objectively at anyone else’s. All the battlefields of all the world are littered with the bones of those sorts of “dinosaurs.”

    Officer Wolfe won't read this. He will just comfort himself with calling me a 'vulture', since I disagree with him and have reasons for my opinions other than unexamined prejudices. I won't swallow his poorly considered thoughts without question. His ego is far too fragile and he knows he's lacking. Which will prevent him from admitting any mistakes or deficiencies he has and correcting them. He'll probably have a long career and be a 'manager' someday. Too bad for his subordinates.
    Interestingly, I was just thinking the same thing, for your subordinates. Yes, god save them from realistic training. Yes, god save them from seeking whatever cover is available. Save them from the death and dismemberment that will surely befall them immediately upon carrying anything other than a .45 ACP… Sigh.

    But I'm not trying to either offend Officer Wolfe or even get him to change what he thinks. I'm far more concerned about the other people reading this thread; I'd prefer you all to hear another side of things and find out things on your own. For that matter, don't accept everything I say; try it out and work at the problem instead of being convinced there's a golden gun or magic bullet. You're all big kids, think for yourselves.
    “Don’t accept everything I say” will be easy advice to follow, indeed.
    Last edited by OPFOR; January 17th, 2012 at 06:42 PM.
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    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  13. #58
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    Good post cdwolfe. Dont change your thoughts. I like standard 1911 gi spec .45's, however, i will never carry one for concealed carry. Not at you cant, but it just doesntwork for ME. I am new to concealed carry and am not too proud to admit it. I can shoot the .45 just as good as a 9mm. I also feel in my OPINION, that the .40 has more recoil than the .45ACP. I dont think it is bad but most and I say most because this is generally true, most shooters shoot the 9mm faster with more accurate follow up shots than a .45acp. I am looking at a Glock 19 or 26, or a Kahr CW9.

    Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk

  14. #59
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    Now you've gone and upset OPFOR, so you're gonna get it! As for me, all this math and numbers is giving me a headache. I feel the need to blow a hole in something--a big one.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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    Gotta love a good ad hominum thread. IMHO after you'e done a lot of shooting, you can pick up any handgun, and after the first trigger break, you own it and dominate it. If you're new to the game, master dry fire, sighted fire, and then learn the recoil force cadence of your weapon/cartridge by close range point shooting as fast as you can pull the trigger with each hand. Finally, you're ready for fast flash sight work at longer ranges, if you think you'll be able to pull your focus off threat. Caliber is immaterial. Confidence via training and shooting from cover, when present, is everything.

    For me, the size and weight of the handgun have as much to do with control as caliber wars. It's interesting to hear from LEO and military experts, but when a civilian student shows up with a tiny 380, 38spl, or 9mm, I know my work's cut out for me. From personal experience, I've had fewer problems with those carrying larger 45's. YMMV
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