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9mm Luger via a LEO's perspective

35K views 209 replies 97 participants last post by  AdamSean 
#1 ·
I have no videos, pdf links, official sounding documents, or a doctor on standby to support what I am about to say. I do however, have 8 years as a police officer under my belt with one of the highest crime rated cities in the southern U.S. After 5 years of patrol, for the past 3 years I have been assigned to the crime scene unit (CSI) and have real world experience with seeing people who are DRT (dead right there) from gunshot wounds. I also have to deal with our coroner's office before/during/after autopsies, and I get the task of handling all the evidence from said cases. On to my observations...

1. I used to be a diehard .45 ACP fanboy until we started training "realistically." We are now required to shoot in various positions, which include 2 handed isosceles stance, 1 hand-strong hand shooting, and 1 hand-weak hand (I am right handed so forced to shoot with left only). We shoot straight on target, from behind cover such as the patrol car's engine block, and from prone behind a curb. Ranges are anywhere from 25 yards out to point blank. I can't hit crap beyond 7 yards with 1 hand-weak hand, shooting a .45 ACP. It feels heavy, wobbly, and awkward. I can get better with practice but why risk my life to this phenomenon.

2. A .40 S&W has more recoil thus slower, ACCURATE follow-ups than the 9mm or .45 ACP. This is a fact and why I do not like .40 S&W.

3. In "Top Cop" competitions hosted by my dept., it's ALWAYS the 9mm LEOs that win those things. Better control, faster follow-up shots, more accurate "high stress" bullet placement.

Having said all this, I recently sold my SF XD 45 and bought a GLOCK 17 Gen4 9mm. I have always used the Speer GD ammo in my .45, so I figured I'd go with some Speer GD 9mm, with the recommended 124g +P stuff. After all, P.D.s such as NY and NJ use them. Then I landed on an article discussing the use of 147g ammo. I had heard of 147g before, but it was several years ago and the data was not that great. Recent testing and bullet design have greatly improved this round to the degree that the following is now "statistically" a common finding:

1. 124g +P has slightly better expansion.
2. 147g has slightly better penetration.

There's even 147g +P out now.

So what do you want in a 9mm designed for stopping power?

1. At least 12" of penetration.
2. Consistent expansion (.60 is nice, .70 is better).
3. Non-separation of bullet/jacket.
4. Being accurate whether it is 2 handed or 1 handed shooting...PoA = PoI.

There is no magic bullet that is the "do all, be all, end all" in a pistol caliber. Weather affects bullet dynamics just as much as the weight of the bullet. 147g SHOULD be more effective in cold weather due to having slightly better penetration (think heavy clothing), but this is not a guarantee. At the same time, against bare skin or in warm months, 124 +P SHOULD be better because of the slightly better expansion. Ultimately you have to be able to hit what you are aiming at, and keep putting rounds on target until the threat is stopped.

I have seen a man that was hit over 15x by numerous rounds to include .45 ACP, .40 S&W and 9mm, but he would not drop. No one was getting good hits on vitals. Then an old school revolver shooter put one in the heart with a .38 SPL and the guy dropped DRT.

I have seen .40 S&W over-penetrate through soft flesh and go in one side and out the other.

I have seen .45 ACP JHP not make it to the heart after traveling through a heavy coat, 3 shirts, and some thermal underwear and the guy ran off and went to the hospital on his own.

I have seen some cheap 9mm ammo that was a 1 hit stop after Joe-Thug shot John-Thug in the heart...DRT.

A lot of this is random thoughts and experiences typed out, but I wanted to make a case from real world experiences that it does not matter what you choose to carry, just make sure you can hit what you are aiming at and to keep on shooting until the bad guy is no longer a threat. We do not train to fire 1 shot, look at the target to see if it is a 1 hit stop, and then to react with some more shots. We shoot MULTIPLE times until the threat has been eliminated. The argument for single shot 9mm vs .45 is just stupid.

In the end what I chose to go with after hours of personal testing was the Federal HST 9mm 124g +P for warm weather and the Federal HST 9mm 147g for cold weather. This decision was reached based on what I could control the BEST in all shooting scenarios, what had great penetration, expansion, and no jacket separation, and what offered PoA = PoI consistency. I am sure the Speer GD is fabulous in 9mm, but my personal research and testing found that the Federal HST was marginally better.

Take it for what it's worth from a "real world" cop with CSI experience.
 
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#163 ·
So what do you want in a 9mm designed for stopping power?

1. At least 12" of penetration.
2. Consistent expansion (.60 is nice, .70 is better).
3. Non-separation of bullet/jacket.
4. Being accurate whether it is 2 handed or 1 handed shooting...PoA = PoI.
No offense, but a 9mm that can expand to .60 is pretty rare. .70 is almost unheard of.
 
#165 ·
Archie, can you please post your credentials? CD Wolfe has pretty much told us about himself but all you tell us about you is that you were in federal law enforcement? Where? FBI,DEA, Department of Agriculture, where? How many shootings do you have under your belt? How many dead bodies or homicides have you handled or investigated? I'm not trying to stir the pot or slam you but I think that revealing that information will lend more credibility to your arguement.
 
#169 ·
The 9mm silvertip did in fact hit Platts heart.
Not according to the Dade County Medical Examiner.

Page 3, The Dade County Medical Examiner Department, Miami, Florida.
Name. Platt, Michael L ... April 11, 1986 ... 10:00 pm ... Case No. 86-0969
GUNSHOT WOUND TO THE RIGHT ARM AND CHEST.

A gunshot entrance wound is located on the posterolateral aspect of the right arm, 17 inches below the top of the head and 8 inches below the right shoulder. It is composed of a 3/8 inch in diameter circular hole which has a 1/16 inch uniform marginal abrasion. It is not surrounded by soot, stippling, or muzzle imprint. It passes through the triceps muscle and exits near the axilla and then re-enters the adjacent right lateral chest wall, continuing through the subcutaneous tissues and muscles along the right posterolateral thorax. A markedly deformed, partially jacketed, medium caliber projectile is recovered from the right posterolateral chest wall just beneath the scapula. It is not associated with any visceral injury. The projectile is placed in an evidence envelope. It’s direction is from right to left
Definition of Visceral (MedicineNet, Inc)
Visceral: Referring to the viscera, the internal organs of the body, specifically those within the chest (as the heart or lungs) or abdomen (as the liver, pancreas or intestines).
 
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#171 ·
Not according to the Dade County Medical Examiner.

Page 3, The Dade County Medical Examiner Department, Miami, Florida.
Name. Platt, Michael L ... April 11, 1986 ... 10:00 pm ... Case No. 86-0969


Definition of Visceral (MedicineNet, Inc)
Visceral: Referring to the viscera, the internal organs of the body, specifically those within the chest (as the heart or lungs) or abdomen (as the liver, pancreas or intestines).
Hmm, I guess I was wrong.
 
#172 ·
Why not?

Its a compromise, do I take a S&W 44 magnum with 6 shots of atomic death that will stop anything and take 4 seconds to get 6 aimed shots or the 9mm Glock with 16 shots of well, I hope it works that I can fire 10 aimed shots in 2.5 seconds. Every aspect is a compromise.

A friend of mine once had to shoot a BIG angry man coming at him with a chainsaw, what would you want to be carrying? What do you want to be holding in your hand when time stops. I will carry the most powerful gun I can conceal well and shoot well.

The top rated bullets perform closely when everything works as planned. Carry the gun that you shoot the best, with a load that functions every time. Perform perfect practice and hone your skills. It has been said that the bullet is 12% of the equation. Tactics and marksmanship are what is going to save the day. If you can keep your head when the world around you goes pear shaped you will have a much better chance of going home. Training allows you to have options and create plans of action.

In all seriousness, a 9mm is fine loaded with modern HP bullets. Its about shot placement and the bullets penetrating deep enough to do the job without deflecting. I tend to like bullets that penetrate deeply. I cannot accurately fire my Glock 40 as fast as I can a 9mm Glock, but I will stick with the 40.
 
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#174 ·
Excellent post, and welcome to the forum

Until now I’ve carried Federal 147 HST in the G17 and Federal 124 Hydro shok in the G26

However, I wanted a round to carry on duty in the G17 and off duty in the G26, whose recoil was conservative enough for repair fire, yet was capable of doing enough tissue damage as well as penetrating at least 14 inches.

Speer Gold Dot 9mm 115 gr Gel Test - YouTube

Check out this Speer Gold Dot 115 test
I’ve order several boxes to try out..
 
#181 ·
As has already been stated, the key is being able to make good hits under pressure with whatever defensive arm you choose to use. We can't duplicate exactly the stress of being in a true defensive situation but there are ways of coming close to that level of stress (think FOF). If we can do that, then the firearm/caliber/amminution used becomes much less important.
 
#184 · (Edited)
3. In "Top Cop" competitions hosted by my dept., it's ALWAYS the 9mm LEOs that win those things. Better control, faster follow-up shots, more accurate "high stress" bullet placement.

THIS SAYS IT ALL. NONE OF IT MATTERS IF YOU CAN'T GET BULLETS ON TARGET QUICKLY UNDER DURESS!!!!

And thank you for taking the time to write this thread. I'm sure you'll have a HECKUVA time with all the responses! ha ha
 
#186 ·
I second the 147 gr.
I have done alot of bullet testing and I really like the GOLDEN SABRES in 147 gr. This is NOT +P because it doesn't have to be!
I also like my CORBON POW'RBALLS (which have time and again DOMINATED official testing) and I think those are only 115gr!

Right now I am carrying my Golden Sabres and I never feel under armed! because I can get rounds on target! MOVING targets!

RESEARCH and carry WHAT WORKS FOR YOU!
 
#188 ·
I have read somewhere that you should carry and shoot the hardest kicking gun that you can handle the recoil on because all that recoil goes in both directions. Makes sense to me. I say carry and shoot anything that gives you a warm fuzzy feeling if it were needed to save your life. If you feel in your mind you can win a gun fight with what you have that is more than half the battle. Confidence and a level head is king in any kind of fight. For all the people that seem to lay awake at night and worry about things like bullet setback it doesn't matter at all what you carry for you probably won't win anyway.
 
#192 ·
Hey Showman, thanks for the reply, & I understand what you are saying (in this post).
However, with the vast quantities of guns that are small enough to be carried, which can easily hold 10
or more rounds, I tend to stand on the "have & not need vs. need & not have" side of the fence.
I "normally" carry a G23 with an extra mag.

Have a great day!
 
#193 ·
Good post, very informative. Thx

Another LEO years back had a similar post reaching the same conclusion. He basicaly said that if you use 9mm + P with 2 shots at center mass the same amount of damage is acheived compared with .40 and .45. There is a slight difference with just 1 shot, but no difference with 2 or more.
 
#194 ·
Somewhere awhile back, it seems like I read somewhere that coroners and surgeons couldn't look at the wounds that handguns made in a human body and usually be able to tell what kind of gun made the wound.

In the old days of unreliable hollowpoint ammo, the only thing one could count on in a gunfight was that a bullet would at least be more or less the same size and diameter, coming in and going out. Therefore, it would only make sense that the biggest bore handgun a shooter could handle would be the best manstopper.

Today, however, we live in an age of more expensive training ammunition but more reliable hollowpoints. Bullets like Gold Dots, HSTs, and others have really leveled the performance playing field among the major calibers. I contend that no one need feel a ballistic inferiority complex if he or she shoots a 9mm or .38 Special.

I would not consider myself a particularly recoil-sensetive shooter. I've shot a few of the "big boy" handguns. Even so, I found that I got tired of shooting .357s, .40s, and .45s sooner than 9's and .38s. It seems like 9s and .38s would be the guns I'd be more likely to shoot a lot and really get to know, that I'd shoot enough to really call my shots and know where they were going more often. Not only that, it seems like I was more likely to do things like practice weak hand drills and one-handed shooting with medium-bore pistols. This, and lower cost training, is what I like about medium-bore handguns.

Clint Smith once said that we should train to be excellent at the range so that we could be at least mediocre in a real gunfight. Therefore, I feel that I owe it to myself, my loved ones, and my community to be "excellent at the range". I like finding the most practical way and applying that. YMMV.
 
#195 ·
I am sure that some of the LEOs out there could find out how to confirm this. It is my understanding that the average number of shots fired in a firefight, streetfight, gunfight, etc. in the United States is less than 2 rounds. And if my memory serves me correctly, the average is around 1.2 rounds, total, all parties involved. I know that there are many different arguments, caliber, particular gun model, mag capacity. But I found this "number of rounds" thing very interesting. Could someone out there please confirm or correct me on this?
 
#196 ·
During my 31 year career I've grown fond of several calibres with the 9mm being my favorite. I also learned that there is no substitute for bullet placement. More often then not a good center of mass hit with a good 9mm bullet will be sufficient. I've seen one shot stops with several calibres ranging form 22 LR to 44 Magnum, and always bullet placement was the most important factor.
 
#200 ·
Agreed. Shot place is important.

Agreed. A well placed 9mm round or two is likely to be "sufficient".

Agreed. Any caliber is capable of a "one shot stop". I'm willing to stipulate that a perfect shot with a pellet gun can result in a one-shot stop.

OK, you like the 9mm. I do too. I have two 9mm handguns; they are both a joy to shoot. But I don't consider the 9mm an ideal handgun round. I don't consider the 9mm an ideal combat round. If I knew I were going to get into a handgun gun fight tomorrow, I'd carry a .45 ACP or a .44 Magnum. Maybe a .357 Magnum. Maybe a .357 Sig (9mm Magnum in my mind).

So, do you think the 9mm is an ideal round or an adequate round?

If the 9mm is such a good round, why was the .40 developed? Or the .357 Sig? To me, the 9mm did not displace the .45 ACP and subsequently, a couple of other higher-power rounds (.40 S&W and .357 Sig) were developed and are gaining popularity. I guess I think the 9mm is adequate. I could see carrying a small, single-stack 9mm for EDC. But only because I don't ever expect to get into a gunfight.
 
#197 ·
I don't know how the 45acp ever took us through 3 wars and mutiple conflicts. The whole top cop to me holds no water. top cop tournaments shooting paper bad guys and steel targets that dont shoot back. I agree its great training but a reduced load is not realistic. I carry all three caliber from time to time but to say the .40 or .45 is not up to par because of recoil is foolish. Think of this your turning the corner and here is the thug about 7 feet away ready to rob you. Do you really think you're going to get 3 shots of 9 millimeter off before you get two off with a 45 when things happen they happen fast. Now dont mistake my comments for a down play for training. Tra
in often budget and time permitting.
 
#199 ·
As a citizen defender, my general sense is that if I am retreating and firing, nobody's going to be chasing me.

In almost every possible scenario, the bad guy is going to be approaching and then, "Oh shucks, he has a gun." And then, "Goodness me, he's shooting at me." In this sort of situation, the assailant will likely take evasive maneuvers, as he or she will most probably wish to avoid being shot.

Oh, sure, there's the odd case of the hopped up addict crazed on PCP or some such, invulnerable to pain and unstoppable, but the chances of having to deal with such a foe are getting pretty far down the list of probable threats.

And, since the average goon wishes to avoid bullets entering his body, I doubt he or she will be much concerned with caliber. A .22 will be as frightening as a .44. For maximum HD, I like .357 or 12 gauge, and arm accordingly. For street purposes, you're probably going to be OK with 9mm and if you've chosen .380 or even .22, chances are if you're able to back-pedal you'll escape with your life intact.

I agree in full with the people above who have noted that the citizen defender is not LEO, and not enjoined to engage and remain in a firefight until the perp is down. In many cases, simple resistance of any sort will end an altercation. So that's something to think about.
 
#201 ·
...since the average goon wishes to avoid bullets entering his body, I doubt he or she will be much concerned with caliber. A .22 will be as frightening as a .44. ....
+1 on the 12 gauge.

I do want to quibble a little bit about caliber. I saw an analysis once that concluded that the loudest group in a fight would intimidate and emerge victorious, i.e. win the field of battle, more often than not. In sum, loud counts. All else being equal, you are better off being louder than not. Following that logic, you are better off with a short barreled .357 than a cute .22.

But that's just style points. Otherwise I'd agree with you.
 
#203 ·
I'm not sure the 1911 really "got us through three wars" on it's own. There was a tiny bit of help from artillery, tanks, aircraft, bombs, machine guns and the Springfield & M1 Garand (and M16/M4, too). A sidearm plays a pretty minor role in the history of warfare.
 
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#207 ·
From my experience of shooting for over forty years, lots of different calibers and lots of different bullets at lots of different stuff I offer my opinion. A 9mm or similar, unless shooting through walls needs to be HP. Velocity is a good thing. Heavy bullet is a good thing. Heavy bullet with velocity is best thing. FMJ 9mm or similar is like pushing a pencil through and unless by chance hits important vital won't amount to much till later. Slow bullet better be big and heavy. Small bullets better be fast. A.22 is deadly, about three days later, again unless it hits important vital. Bullet placement in a gunfight is as much luck as anything. I know a man who was going to shoot close to my best friend to scare him. I could not stop him because I did not know he was going to do it. He shot close, hit a piece of steel and a tiny shard of the bullet went into my friends heart and killed him instantly. Bottom line is anything can happen. I don't know if I believe caliber has as much to do with outcome as many other variables. For my part I will try to pick a well constructed HP regardless of caliber.
 
#208 ·
A 9mm or similar, unless shooting through walls needs to be HP.
Absolutely. The HP will inflict maximum damage and tend, if well-placed, to expend its energy in the target and not venture downrange. The bullet pictured in the middle below is Corbon DPX:



This is what I carry in .38spl and 9mm. For .357, just SWC. But look at that expansion pattern. It's well worth the money because time after time, DPX gives you that shape.

To return again to perp psychology, all cases are unique. I'd never advocate carrying a mousegun loaded with .22 mag. Most of the old junk guns in .25 or .32, made by Jimenez Arms, Jennings Firearms, Raven Arms, etc., were unreliable and likely as not to fall apart in the owner's hand.

The point is, however, that victims who survive do statistically tend to be those who resist. The general perp expects compliance. Begging. On your knees and handing it over. Taking shoe leather. That's the plan and that's how it will go unless the scenario changes.

A strongly resisting victim changes the equation. The perp then has to weigh benefit and cost. He or she could get seriously hurt. And what we see, in videos, in the annals of Armed Citizen, in your own newspaper's crime blotter, is that those who resist and fight back often see the BGs flee in pursuit of softer targets.

No, no guarantee this will happen. But percentage-wise, it often does.
 
#209 ·
What's the old saying? I think it goes, "It's the fight in the dog, not the dog in the fight". Survivors survive...people who are determined to prevail are far more likely to prevail. Also those who prepare. As I have said, again and again, a person's will to fight back and survive is more important than having the closest thing to a "death ray" in a handgun. And that "junk gun" is more than likely the choice of a perp. Most criminals see a gun as a tool, a scare device, or an ego boost. More likely than not, they don't carry $3000 Ed Brown custom 1911's. As long as the defender has an adequately-powered handgun with adequate ammuntion, the rest is about the "fight in the dog".
 
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