9mm Luger via a LEO's perspective

This is a discussion on 9mm Luger via a LEO's perspective within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; ...from 25 yards out , to point blank Fixed. Not sure what all the fuss is about....

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Thread: 9mm Luger via a LEO's perspective

  1. #61
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    ...from 25 yards out, to point blank
    Fixed. Not sure what all the fuss is about.
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  3. #62
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunthorp View Post
    Gotta love a good ad hominum thread. IMHO after you'e done a lot of shooting, you can pick up any handgun, and after the first trigger break, you own it and dominate it. If you're new to the game, master dry fire, sighted fire, and then learn the recoil force cadence of your weapon/cartridge by close range point shooting as fast as you can pull the trigger with each hand. Finally, you're ready for fast flash sight work at longer ranges, if you think you'll be able to pull your focus off threat. Caliber is immaterial. Confidence via training and shooting from cover, when present, is everything.

    For me, the size and weight of the handgun have as much to do with control as caliber wars. It's interesting to hear from LEO and military experts, but when a civilian student shows up with a tiny 380, 38spl, or 9mm, I know my work's cut out for me. From personal experience, I've had fewer problems with those carrying larger 45's. YMMV

    Same statement but with a new twist..... friggin hilarious
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  4. #63
    Distinguished Member Array RevolvingMag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    CDWolfe, the 9mm still does not offer anything over the 38spl, other than hi capacity handguns so chambered.

    The point that bmcgilvray made is absolutely correct. Compare any bullet you like, for instance 9mm Gold dot or 38sPl Gold Dot, and the ballistics of the 9mm are no better than the 38spl.

    As a matter of fact, the 38spl remains supreme due to it's larger powder capacity, and ability to fire heavier bullets of any design without feeding issues. In a stout framed gun, the 38spl can be handloaded to 38-44 velocities that are well into 357 magnum territory. And one would have to be ballistically retarded to argue the 9mm compares to the 357 magnum.

    Load that 38 with 5.4 grns of Unique under a 160 weight Keith bullet and it will make ANY 9mm loading look like a " pop " gun. And that, is a fact.
    Glockman, I thought you were pretty cool. But, then you went and used a term like "ballistically retarded", and it was even better than what I expected you might throw in there. I just want to thank you for almost making me spray my computer with Coke.
    "Rock and load, lock and roll... what's it matter? FIRE!!"

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    Please take everything I say with at least one grain of salt- I am a very sarcastic person with a very dry sense of humor.

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by RevolvingMag View Post
    Glockman, I thought you were pretty cool. But, then you went and used a term like "ballistically retarded", and it was even better than what I expected you might throw in there. I just want to thank you for almost making me spray my computer with Coke.
    Wouldn't "ballistically challenged" have been the more PC way for the GMan to have phrased it?

  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmhawth View Post
    Wouldn't "ballistically challenged" have been the more PC way for the GMan to have phrased it?
    Yes but not nearly as funny.
    "Rock and load, lock and roll... what's it matter? FIRE!!"

    "Gun control means hitting your target every time."

    Please take everything I say with at least one grain of salt- I am a very sarcastic person with a very dry sense of humor.

  7. #66
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I'm sorry. I seem to be lacking in some aspects of , shall we say, socially verbal tactical judo?
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by BritishAgent View Post
    Fixed. Not sure what all the fuss is about.
    Well, not quite. What Archie was saying was not only was the OP unclear/backwards about the ranges he was trying to determine, he also misused the phrase point blank. Today, the "common" definition of point blank is "really, really close," but that is not the historical or "true" definition. The historical definition is "any range so that the marksman does not have to account for the drop of the projectile in order to hit his target." Thus, depending on the weapon system and how it is zeroed, point blank could be quite a long distance, indeed.

    It is a minor point, because (as we've seen), so few people know the "real" definition of point blank as to render the real definition worthless in most conversations....
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I'm sorry. I seem to be lacking in some aspects of , shall we say, socially verbal tactical judo?
    Oh, I don't know. "Ballistically retarded" is so advanced over "ballistically challanged" in socially verbal tactical judo that its usage places the user on a higher plane of advanced consciousness, able to wield fearsome weapons of effective verbal dominance (i.e. it made the point better).

    Anyway, I liked it.
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  10. #69
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    CDWolfe, the 9mm still does not offer anything over the 38spl, other than hi capacity handguns so chambered.

    The point that bmcgilvray made is absolutely correct. Compare any bullet you like, for instance 9mm Gold dot or 38sPl Gold Dot, and the ballistics of the 9mm are no better than the 38spl.

    As a matter of fact, the 38spl remains supreme due to it's larger powder capacity, and ability to fire heavier bullets of any design without feeding issues. In a stout framed gun, the 38spl can be handloaded to 38-44 velocities that are well into 357 magnum territory. And one would have to be ballistically retarded to argue the 9mm compares to the 357 magnum.

    Load that 38 with 5.4 grns of Unique under a 160 weight Keith bullet and it will make ANY 9mm loading look like a " pop " gun. And that, is a fact.
    While it may be possible to handload the .38 special to impressive power levels when used in .357 magnum class revolvers not everyone can do that.
    If you look at factory loadings there is a marked difference between .38 special +P ballistics and 9mm or 9mm+P.
    Winchester PDX1 factory loading of .38 special +P has an advertised muzzle energy of 260 ft/lbs.
    Winchester PDX1 factory loading of 9mm has an advertised muzzle energy of 326 ft/lbs.
    Winchester PDX1 factory loading of 9mm +P has an advertised muzzle energy of 396 ft/lbs.
    The standard pressure 9mm offers about 25% more energy and the +P about 50% more energy.
    The factory loadings from Federal are similar With the +P .38 in the mid 200's for energy and the standard pressure 9mm above 300.

    I am not aware of any department in this country that handloads ammunition for issue to it's officers. For those that do not the 9mm semi auto is a significant improvement over their previously issued .38 revolvers.

    (That being said I am now on my way to try to swing a deal on a S&W model 65-1 I have had my eye on for a while! )
    mrwonderful likes this.
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  11. #70
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Energy level statistics are only a very narrow window of judging a cartridges effectivness. While the energy levels may reflect a higher number with HP or Designer bullet design, the one thing that the 38spl has, and, can be purchased commercially, is the +p swc bullet, which is much more capable of straight line penetration, even after hitting bone, than any load the 9mm can in ammo commonly sold for it.

    While the 9mm, is a fine and dandy round, but it is not really doing anything better than the 38spl. From the tests on medium game I have taken in the field, I would take the 38 with cast swc bullets anyday of the week.
    However, when you have a pistol loaded with 15 rounds of 9mm, it offers other readily apparent advantages.

    I guess my point is, the 9 is fine, but the 38 is great.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  12. #71
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    I guess my point is, the 9 is fine, but the 38 is great. For one guy, in one region, hunting medium game.
    There, fixed that for ya. ;)
    mrwonderful and kerberos like this.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPFOR View Post
    There, fixed that for ya. ;)
    At least you are dependable.:)
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  14. #73
    RKM
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    I prefer a 9mm over a .38, mainly because of the firearms they're chambered for. I carry my 442 5 days a week because of it's ease of carry, but I'd rather be carrying my G19. And it's not about stopping power. It's about capacity and I shoot the G19 WAY better and more comfortably.

  15. #74
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    Hmmmm.....Interesting discussion.



    Note to self...

    add "ballistically retarded" to personal Wikepedia.

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  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by RKM View Post
    I prefer a 9mm over a .38, mainly because of the firearms they're chambered for. I carry my 442 5 days a week because of it's ease of carry, but I'd rather be carrying my G19. And it's not about stopping power. It's about capacity and I shoot the G19 WAY better and more comfortably.
    That's sensible. The air weight guns can be difficult to shoot as accurate, and the G19 is an awesome carry piece for all the right reasons. And certainly, the 9mm is up to the job.

    Myself, I prefer accuracy over everything, so I prefer a 4 inch revolver. Personally, I have not found an auto that gives me the out of box accuracy that I prefer that a 4 inch revolver gives.

    It's really what suits ones needs and desires in a carry gun. That's why it's hard to make do with just one.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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