9mm Luger via a LEO's perspective

This is a discussion on 9mm Luger via a LEO's perspective within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Isn"t Glockman comparing a 158 grain bullet in plus P? From everything I have read in these posts I really don't see any valid reason ...

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Thread: 9mm Luger via a LEO's perspective

  1. #91
    Member Array Alarm Guy's Avatar
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    Isn"t Glockman comparing a 158 grain bullet in plus P? From everything I have read in these posts I really don't see any valid reason to shoot anything under 158 grains in my 38? Especially since I don,t reload.

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  3. #92
    Senior Member Array IAm_Not_Lost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    When will people finally graduate beyond energy figures as an indicator of judging cartridge performance?

    There is more than one way to up an energy figure. But energy tells us very little. Head to head, anyway anyone wants to load them, there is nothing in the numbers that show any increase of performance of the 9mm over the 38spl.

    And, you can move up to a 200 weight bullet in the 38spl, which gives it even more thump.
    Or, you can download the bullet weight to 110, and match the lightweight 9mm, but you can't take the 9mm up.

    Like I said before, the 9mm only gives you more bullets to fling at the problem, but that's the only real advantage. However, in today's mindset of gun toters, they probably need it.
    Gman, Will a 200gr .38special even make it out of the barrel?

    This conversation reminds me of the 124gr v 147gr 9mm threads. Were sitting here arguing about whether a 158gr .38 is better than a 147gr 9mm. Both rounds have proven they work, both rounds have their advantages, you say tomato....
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  4. #93
    VIP Member Array sixgun's Avatar
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    Nice article. It does boil down to shot placement-shot placement-shot placement. Thats why we practice alot right. theres times when I carry my 32 in the summer and switch to larger calibers in cooler weather.
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  5. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alarm Guy View Post
    Isn"t Glockman comparing a 158 grain bullet in plus P? From everything I have read in these posts I really don't see any valid reason to shoot anything under 158 grains in my 38? Especially since I don,t reload.
    He did mention higher grained bullets, but he said to compare two gold dot loads, and speer does not list a 158 grain gold dot on their website (atleast not that I could find).

  6. #95
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Before we start losing focus of what the actual debate is guys, let's back up a minute here.

    I am not saying the 38 is " superior " to the 9mm.
    What I am saying is that the 9mm is not " superior " to the 38 spl.

    Also, let's take this into consideration; the factory does not load the 38 spl to it's fullest potential in most cases. Someone said it best when they stated that the police did not leave the 38 for the 9 due to lack of performance, they wanted higher capacity.

    And I'll go out on a limb here with an opinion of mine; most here would be better served by a 38spl revolver instead of an auto loader, unless, you are in a high risk job such as LE or military. And, I'll go another step out on the limb and state I believe it would make better shots out of people.

    Additionally, I believe that the reason the 38 spl is not hopped up more is due to the prevalence of light weight j frames that they are likely to be shot in.

    The simple fact is, and I know I will piss a few people off here, but I don't care, is that most people have unrealistic expectations, and feel like they have to dress for war everyday, and they depend on that round count to " save themselves, their families" ect ect add nauseum.

    Last year, I was off duty, and in a tobacco store when a fight broke out. Two guys were beating the hell out of this one guy. I told the cashier to call the local PD. I went outside and broke it up. One of the guys who was in the assault went across the street and picked up a folded bed rail that was put out for collection. I pulled the little j frame from my pocket, and showed my ID with the other, keeping the little j frame at the low ready. He continued to disregard my directive, so I found center mass and was preparing to cycle the action. Luckily he stopped, the police got there, I pocketed the pistol and explained my part, and left. They took all three to jail.

    Folks, I had every confidence in that 158 grain hot loaded swc to end it right there and then. I was already planning to drop the hammer on his friend, if necessary, should he get real stupid too.

    I had 5 shots, plenty enough to do the job if needed. This is not the first time I have broke leather in anticipation of deadly force. And, not the first time with a 38spl. I have the utmost confidence in it. I have seen the effects of the 158 weight swc in flesh and bone.

    I support the right to carry anything one wants. All I'm saying is do not allow your comfort level to be associated with round count. And don't discount the effectiveness of the 38spl.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  7. #96
    Member Array l1a1's Avatar
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    Let me end the debate with pure, unadulterated scientific proof...

    I have never felt under-gunned carrying a 9mm, .38 Special, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP.

    In all seriousness, if shot placement is good all of these can be a fight stopper. If shot placement is bad, any could prove underwhelming to the recipient. (Unless you can make the vital pinky hit with the .45, blowing the bad guys arm off and spinning him around) :)

  8. #97
    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    Lots of velocity and bullet weight numbers are thrown around.

    That's all great, but how well is the bullet designed to turn those energy numbers into bleeding flesh and broken bone?

    How 'bout a 400 HP V8, in a nice little hot rod going 200 mph, but with bald tires?

    Where does the rubber meet the road in these endless ballistic debates?
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  9. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by IAm_Not_Lost View Post
    Gman, Will a 200gr .38special even make it out of the barrel?
    Actually a 200 grain bullet is easily managed by a .38 Special. Both Remington and Winchester once cataloged 200 grain lead .38 Special ammunition. I found a box of Winchester with 4 rounds remaining years ago. I fired up the rounds for effect, not chronographing them. They didn't seem too energetic.

    I shot a number of Remington component 200 grain bullets off over several years time. Here's the results of the particular load used in several barrel lengths.


    2-inch barrel

    MV 835
    ME 309
    ES 48
    SD 18

    4-inch barrel

    MV 860 fps
    ME 328 ft./lbs.
    ES 59
    SD 19

    6-inch barrel

    MV 888
    ME 350
    ES 41
    SD 14

    8 3/8-inch barrel

    MV 953 fps
    ME 403
    ES 37
    SD 10
    glockman10mm likes this.
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  10. #99
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    As usual, Glockman does provide some horse sense on what has otherwise turned into the monthly 9mm can 'o worms.

  11. #100
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    Okay... I'm posting this without doing any research, but I did do some before. Let me throw a couple of things out here, and give me a minute afterward for the requisite hazing.

    All of these are prefaced with "If I Recall Correctly"...

    The .38spl round is measured as .38 because it was developed in the transition between heeled and 'straight' bullets, and the case was measured instead of the bullet itself, with the bullet measured at .357.

    The .357 was developed after rounds were measured by the bullet diameter, which is why the "magnum" version of the ".38" is called the ".357".

    Similarly, the .38 was developed when black powder was standard, and the 9mm was developed as a smokeless round from the beginning.

    The only reason the case is longer on the .357 over the .38 is to keep the .357 from actually fitting in the .38 cylinder, the powder charge would fit in the .38 case... I've seen the cylinders from .38s that have been blown apart from overzealous handloaders.

    The limitations on loading the three above rounds isn't due to case capacity, but pressure in the firing chamber. If I'm right about that... arguments about the longer case of the .38 compared to the 9mm are beyond useless, but counterproductive.

    I dunno, maybe I'm off base here... but I recall the adage that arguing on the Internet is like running the special Olympics... even if you win, you're still (ballistically) retarded.
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  12. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by livewire9880 View Post
    Okay... I'm posting this without doing any research, but I did do some before. Let me throw a couple of things out here, and give me a minute afterward for the requisite hazing.

    All of these are prefaced with "If I Recall Correctly"...

    The .38spl round is measured as .38 because it was developed in the transition between heeled and 'straight' bullets, and the case was measured instead of the bullet itself, with the bullet measured at .357.

    The .357 was developed after rounds were measured by the bullet diameter, which is why the "magnum" version of the ".38" is called the ".357".

    Similarly, the .38 was developed when black powder was standard, and the 9mm was developed as a smokeless round from the beginning.

    The only reason the case is longer on the .357 over the .38 is to keep the .357 from actually fitting in the .38 cylinder, the powder charge would fit in the .38 case... I've seen the cylinders from .38s that have been blown apart from overzealous handloaders.

    The limitations on loading the three above rounds isn't due to case capacity, but pressure in the firing chamber. If I'm right about that... arguments about the longer case of the .38 compared to the 9mm are beyond useless, but counterproductive.

    I dunno, maybe I'm off base here... but I recall the adage that arguing on the Internet is like running the special Olympics... even if you win, you're still (ballistically) retarded.
    OK, a "ballistically retarded" question here but: What do heeled bullets, the dimensional measurements and nomenclature for various revolver cartridges, the .357 Magnum, the fact that the .38 Special was first loaded with black powder and the 9mm was originally loaded with smokeless powder have to to do with the reason why modern .38 Special capabilities in modern .38 Special revolvers is considered to be inferior to the 9mm? Especially as there are .38 Special loadings on the market that perform so well and such loads have been marketed since 1930 when the .38-44 was introduced. Where does the .38 Special give it up to 9mm besides in some folks minds?
    Charter Member of the DC .41 LC Society

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  13. #102
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    "...higher grained bullets..."

    Is this akin to catching the highest pounded black bass of the tournament? Or: that loaded semi-truck is higher tonned than 20 Vokswagens.

    "Grain" is a unit of measure and not a synonym for weight. The use of grain as a synonym has crept into more and more forum postings but it's use is a sign of a newby to shooting. This assault of ignorance is complete the day some gun scribe first uses it incorrectly in a published article.



    "Heavier bullets" is correct and will work admirably.
    64zebra likes this.
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  14. #103
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Another " ballistically retarded question".

    Make that two questions. I was trying to figure out that one also.

    I suppose, based on popular assumption and ignorance, that my 158 weight bullets at 1000-1100 fps are " inadequate".
    Any psychics in the audience? Someone get ahold of John Lennon and Oswald and tell them the 38 was inadequate so they can re join the party.
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  15. #104
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    OK, a "ballistically retarded" question here but: What do heeled bullets, the dimensional measurements and nomenclature for various revolver cartridges, the .357 Magnum, the fact that the .38 Special was first loaded with black powder and the 9mm was originally loaded with smokeless powder have to to do with the reason why modern .38 Special capabilities in modern .38 Special revolvers is considered to be inferior to the 9mm? Especially as there are .38 Special loadings on the market that perform so well and such loads have been marketed since 1930 when the .38-44 was introduced. Where does the .38 Special give it up to 9mm besides in some folks minds?

    I was just pointing out that discussing the case size of the .38 spl compared to the 9mm Luger is irrelevant. I hear it all the time online and in the LGS... the .38 is supposed to be "better" because it can hold more powder.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special#Performance
    Performance

    Due to its black powder heritage, the .38 Special is a low pressure cartridge, one of the lowest in common use today at 17,000 PSI. By modern standards, the .38 Special fires a medium-sized bullet at rather low speeds. The closest comparisons are the .380 ACP, which fires much lighter bullets slightly faster than most .38 Special loads; the 9x19mm Parabellum, which fires a somewhat lighter bullet significantly faster; and the .38 Colt Super, which fires a comparable bullet significantly faster. All three of these are usually found in semi-automatic pistols.

    The higher-pressure .38 +P loads at 20,000 PSI offer about 20% more muzzle energy than standard-pressure loads and places between .380 ACP and 9 mm Parabellum, similar to that of 9x18mm Makarov.

    It is important to recognize that SAAMI changed the specifications for the 38 Special in 1972. Prior to that time the standard .38 Special was very close to today's "+P" cartridges. The thought that "+P" is somehow a high pressure round has many mistakenly believing that it is "high performance" rather than the low pressure round that it is.
    Sure, I could put the same powder charge that a 9mm carries, and get the same performance, and similar weighted bullets are available (124gr and 125gr, is there really a difference). I could probably put two 9mm powder charges in the longer .38 spl case. I could also blow my cylinder apart doing it...

    Ultimately, a 9mm vs .38spl debate is going to be counterproductive, because you're not comparing apples and oranges. Sure, they're both fruit, but that's about it.
    Last edited by livewire; January 19th, 2012 at 12:23 PM. Reason: Emphasis added.
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  16. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    "Owning a handgun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician." - Col. Cooper

    It's the trigger puller, not the trigger.
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