9mm Luger via a LEO's perspective

This is a discussion on 9mm Luger via a LEO's perspective within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; CDWolfe, I appreciate your thoughts on the matter, and an oppurtunity to engage in debate with the civilities most often lacking in such endeavors of ...

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Thread: 9mm Luger via a LEO's perspective

  1. #121
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    CDWolfe, I appreciate your thoughts on the matter, and an oppurtunity to engage in debate with the civilities most often lacking in such endeavors of thought.

    I too engage in the real world of guns, bullets and such as a profession. I am one who will openly challenge the common thinking of the day, and bountiful banter we hear regurgitated on a regular basis.

    Case in point; show me someone in the profession, regardless of education, pedigrees, and titles, that cannot tell, or come close to guessing the caliber of the weapon by the bullet hole in the skin, and I'll show you someone who has never seen a full caliber hole cut by a semi wadcutter.

    Yes, I say expansion is not even relevant to me. Even though I am relegated to the on duty carry of weapons and ammo meant to " idiot proof" anyone who uses the combination, for my personal use, i choose either a 45 or a revolver allowing the use of swc style bullets. I choose not to waste time, money investing in designer ammo that is way more expensive and hyped up than it's monetary value.

    Go back and look at my thread on deer hunting and look at the pics of the damage created by the 45acp with a fmj. A picture and practical application on live tissue, in my opinion is worth much more than the hype and sales pitch of a bunch of lab rat ninnies, or the marketing pitch of a high priced marketing company hired to sell this newer improved ammo.

    If, these companies really want to show how good their product is, then put it to the test. Lots of places where deer or hogs need to be culled, many times for free.

    But they wont. Do you know why? Cause an old rancher from Idaho, has already shown that a simple, cheap, lead bullet of a particular design is as good as anything they had now or then.

    And there are still enough good ol country boys around to continue to be able to prove this very thing still today. Imagine the drop in sales when their bullets couldn't produce any better results than this ol dumb country boys home brewed hard cast fodder? It would be disastrous for business.

    Like I always say, everybody has got to hoe their own row.
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  3. #122
    New Member Array CDWolfe's Avatar
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    I'd just like to point out that I use the WWB 9mm from Wal-mart for practice ($25 for 100 cartridges) and I buy my Federal HST 124g +P 9mm online (LEO credentials are a wonderful thing) and I get them at $25 for a box of 50. Most local places around here charge $25 for a box of 20 when it comes to duty ammo.

    .45 ACP is more expensive (by a few dollars) on both ends.

  4. #123
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    In an effort to correct my part in the thread drift, my handloads for my .357 should have similar ballistics to the factory Ranger "T" 127grain +P+ I carry in my 9mms.
    Not exact but in the neighborhood.
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  5. #124
    Senior Member Array theskunk's Avatar
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    All you need to do is get your gun out without shooting yourself. Next fire three 9mm without the gun jamming.
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  6. #125
    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    I agree with expansion being down a ways on the list of priorities.

    A bullet has to reach its destination, first. So it's easy for us all to agree that placement is top priority.

    However, if the bullet doesn't reach any vitals, expansion makes little difference. If the bullet does reach its mark, then expansion can be an asset.

    I wonder why dangerous game hunters primarily use solids? Because penetration is top priority after placement, in life or death situations.

    Really, the only merit that I can see for hollowpoints, is to prevent overpenetration. We want our bullet to penetrate to a point, but not further. But there's too many variables out of our control that determine if the hollowpoint will expand at all, let alone when we want it to.

    Then there's all that stuff about jacket separation, weight retention, etc & etc.
    glockman10mm and 64zebra like this.
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

  7. #126
    New Member Array CDWolfe's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=zacii;2142312] I wonder why dangerous game hunters primarily use solids? Because penetration is top priority after placement, in life or death situations. [QUOTE]

    I can't answer this about hunters who use pistols.

    For rifle users, a rifle round delivers far more damage because of sheer velocity/energy that can turn organs into jelly, regardless of ball or hp ammo.

  8. #127
    Member Array Archie's Avatar
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    Dangerous game rifles

    Zacii, dangerous game rifles (and pistols for the vastly brave or deranged) use solids for penetration.

    F'rinstance, elephant are typically shot in the head/brain for a fast, humane kill. The skull on an elephant is something on the order of six inches of pretty tough bone. Not to mention, even the body is BIG. A heart shot requires a couple feet of hide, bone, muscle and fat penetration prior to reaching the heart. Hippos are equally huge in terms of body size and layers of hide and fat and bone to penetrate. Cape Buffalo are not quite as big - compared to an elephant or hippo - but make up for size with construction. Their hide and muscle layers are impressive. And Cape Buffalo are as big in the body as moose.

    As Wolfe said, the high velocity of the rifle round's impact causes tissue and organ damage. Most handguns do not. Off the top of my head, this condition - 'hydrostatic shock' - begins occurring at about 2000 feet per second at impact, not muzzle velocity. The effect is greater at greater impact velocities. It has little effect at 'normal' handgun velocities of 700 to 1300 f/s.

    Compare the above to North American game animals. Deer are soft skinned and usually not dangerous. Elk are a big more dangerous, but still not tough skinned like Buffalo. Bears, even the dangerous ones, are not thick skinned in the same way.

    For use against humans, most 'larger' caliber handguns can easily penetrate a human body. So the trick is to have enough power (not limited to simple kinetic energy, a serious misconception) to damage the internal workings and cause the malefactor to stop doing whatever was so objectionable AND have the bullet stop prior to exiting and damaging property or people down range. The best way to do this is an on going discussion.
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  9. #128
    Member Array Archie's Avatar
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    A short note on the comparison of case sizes of .38 Special and 9x19.

    What would happen if one loaded a .38 Special case to 9x19 pressure levels?

    Answer: .357 Magnum.
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  10. #129
    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    I understand the reasons surrounding rifles, hunting and dangerous game hunting.

    I was just trying to use a comparison where penetration is a priority over expansion.
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

  11. #130
    Member Array Archie's Avatar
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    Dangerous game rifles, again

    Zacii, in very loose terms, the difference is size of target. Comparatively, a 9x19 pistol is larger to a human than a .458 Winchester is to an elephant.

    Compared to size of elephant (for greatest contrast) one could use 'expanding' bullets if one carried something on the order of a 3.5 inch rocket launcher or LAAW rocket. Probably not a perfect comparison, but one could use a .25 or .32 ACP with FMJ ammo, depend on penetration and only aim at heart or brain. Since the human head is smaller, it makes for a harder target. (Not what I recommend.)
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  12. #131
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archie View Post
    Zacii, in very loose terms, the difference is size of target. Comparatively, a 9x19 pistol is larger to a human than a .458 Winchester is to an elephant.

    Compared to size of elephant (for greatest contrast) one could use 'expanding' bullets if one carried something on the order of a 3.5 inch rocket launcher or LAAW rocket. Probably not a perfect comparison, but one could use a .25 or .32 ACP with FMJ ammo, depend on penetration and only aim at heart or brain. Since the human head is smaller, it makes for a harder target. (Not what I recommend.)
    It's not just proportion though, it's a lot of physics beyond just the size of the projectile compared to the size of the target.
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  13. #132
    Member Array Archie's Avatar
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    Livewire, I was speaking in simple terms. To what 'physics beyond' do you refer?
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  14. #133
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archie View Post
    Livewire, I was speaking in simple terms. To what 'physics beyond' do you refer?
    Stuff neither of us has the capabilities to understand, or have a decent discussion about in an Internet forum.

    It sounds so simple... force equals mass times acceleration. But when you add in the elements of soft tissue being liquefied by the shockwave of a heavy projectile at extreme velocities with energy numbers in the 5,000 ft-lb range compared to a small, light projectile at mediocre velocities, it's not just proportion.
    There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap - ballot - jury - ammo

    “The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie: deliberate, continued, and dishonest; but the myth: persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.”
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  15. #134
    Senior Member Array jblives2ride's Avatar
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    love the post hear stories like yours from my cop friends all the time. Agree 100% good shoots are much more important than big caliber, with that said that's why I try to shoot a few hundred rounds every couple weeks but it gets very expensive...I carry a glock 23 even though your not much on .40 cals I love it and shoot it well with both hands, and carry a .380 as a back up.. Hopeing my buddy starts reloading soon...
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  16. #135
    Senior Member Array AZ Desertrat's Avatar
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    My favorite question on this has always been: How come NO ONE can advocate the 9mm here without a friggin knockdown, dragout
    dissertation on the virtues of every caliber, the put-downs of other calibers and all this supposed gobbledey **** about FPS, ME, blah blah blah? hehehehehehehe....entertaining....YES....answer the questions....NEVER. I like 9mm....I also love .41 Mag....so..guess I am in the weird bunch. Have a good night guys......OH....and I had a blast shooting my Chiefs Special .38 snubbie today.....
    "The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government--lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." --Patrick Henry

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