Defensive Carry banner

9mm Luger via a LEO's perspective

35K views 209 replies 97 participants last post by  AdamSean 
#1 ·
I have no videos, pdf links, official sounding documents, or a doctor on standby to support what I am about to say. I do however, have 8 years as a police officer under my belt with one of the highest crime rated cities in the southern U.S. After 5 years of patrol, for the past 3 years I have been assigned to the crime scene unit (CSI) and have real world experience with seeing people who are DRT (dead right there) from gunshot wounds. I also have to deal with our coroner's office before/during/after autopsies, and I get the task of handling all the evidence from said cases. On to my observations...

1. I used to be a diehard .45 ACP fanboy until we started training "realistically." We are now required to shoot in various positions, which include 2 handed isosceles stance, 1 hand-strong hand shooting, and 1 hand-weak hand (I am right handed so forced to shoot with left only). We shoot straight on target, from behind cover such as the patrol car's engine block, and from prone behind a curb. Ranges are anywhere from 25 yards out to point blank. I can't hit crap beyond 7 yards with 1 hand-weak hand, shooting a .45 ACP. It feels heavy, wobbly, and awkward. I can get better with practice but why risk my life to this phenomenon.

2. A .40 S&W has more recoil thus slower, ACCURATE follow-ups than the 9mm or .45 ACP. This is a fact and why I do not like .40 S&W.

3. In "Top Cop" competitions hosted by my dept., it's ALWAYS the 9mm LEOs that win those things. Better control, faster follow-up shots, more accurate "high stress" bullet placement.

Having said all this, I recently sold my SF XD 45 and bought a GLOCK 17 Gen4 9mm. I have always used the Speer GD ammo in my .45, so I figured I'd go with some Speer GD 9mm, with the recommended 124g +P stuff. After all, P.D.s such as NY and NJ use them. Then I landed on an article discussing the use of 147g ammo. I had heard of 147g before, but it was several years ago and the data was not that great. Recent testing and bullet design have greatly improved this round to the degree that the following is now "statistically" a common finding:

1. 124g +P has slightly better expansion.
2. 147g has slightly better penetration.

There's even 147g +P out now.

So what do you want in a 9mm designed for stopping power?

1. At least 12" of penetration.
2. Consistent expansion (.60 is nice, .70 is better).
3. Non-separation of bullet/jacket.
4. Being accurate whether it is 2 handed or 1 handed shooting...PoA = PoI.

There is no magic bullet that is the "do all, be all, end all" in a pistol caliber. Weather affects bullet dynamics just as much as the weight of the bullet. 147g SHOULD be more effective in cold weather due to having slightly better penetration (think heavy clothing), but this is not a guarantee. At the same time, against bare skin or in warm months, 124 +P SHOULD be better because of the slightly better expansion. Ultimately you have to be able to hit what you are aiming at, and keep putting rounds on target until the threat is stopped.

I have seen a man that was hit over 15x by numerous rounds to include .45 ACP, .40 S&W and 9mm, but he would not drop. No one was getting good hits on vitals. Then an old school revolver shooter put one in the heart with a .38 SPL and the guy dropped DRT.

I have seen .40 S&W over-penetrate through soft flesh and go in one side and out the other.

I have seen .45 ACP JHP not make it to the heart after traveling through a heavy coat, 3 shirts, and some thermal underwear and the guy ran off and went to the hospital on his own.

I have seen some cheap 9mm ammo that was a 1 hit stop after Joe-Thug shot John-Thug in the heart...DRT.

A lot of this is random thoughts and experiences typed out, but I wanted to make a case from real world experiences that it does not matter what you choose to carry, just make sure you can hit what you are aiming at and to keep on shooting until the bad guy is no longer a threat. We do not train to fire 1 shot, look at the target to see if it is a 1 hit stop, and then to react with some more shots. We shoot MULTIPLE times until the threat has been eliminated. The argument for single shot 9mm vs .45 is just stupid.

In the end what I chose to go with after hours of personal testing was the Federal HST 9mm 124g +P for warm weather and the Federal HST 9mm 147g for cold weather. This decision was reached based on what I could control the BEST in all shooting scenarios, what had great penetration, expansion, and no jacket separation, and what offered PoA = PoI consistency. I am sure the Speer GD is fabulous in 9mm, but my personal research and testing found that the Federal HST was marginally better.

Take it for what it's worth from a "real world" cop with CSI experience.
 
See less See more
#2 ·
I always wondered why folks got wrapped around the axle with the "one shot stop" concept. If I ever get in a bind, target will get two rounds, at minimum. Funny how things swing. The much maligned 9mm is making an impressive comeback.

Many thanks for your post. It further validates a few theories I subscribe to: 9mm is certainly enough, and one round fired certainly isn't.

Welcome to the forum.
 
#137 ·
It further validates a few theories I subscribe to: 9mm is certainly enough, and one round fired certainly isn't.
What he said. ^^^
 
#3 ·
I have seen .45 ACP JHP not make it to the heart after traveling through a heavy coat, 3 shirts, and some thermal underwear and the guy ran off and went to the hospital on his own.
With all due respect, everything you mention I have read in one form or another about every two months on DC. My question to you was why in the was someone wearing all that clothing you mention above in the deep south? :smile:
 
#11 ·
Maybe they knew there was a possibility of getting shot with a .45 in the chest and wanted to take precautions:smile:

To the OP; while the points you mentioned have been tossed around quite a bit on the forums as CHawk mentions, I thought your comments and arguments were well thought out, and explained your reasoning for endorsing the 9mm. I think it's a good round, is it the best out there? Probably not, but it'll get it done in a pinch no doubt.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bark'n
#5 ·
I agree, the more shots on target the better (common sense). What the fanboys (of any caliber) always argue is theories of expansion, kinetic energy, velocity, etc. Trust me when I tell you that standing still, shooting at a non-moving paper target is FAR DIFFERENT that shooting defensively while Mr. Bad Guy is popping rounds off that go zinging by your head because he refuses to go back to jail alive. All that theory crap goes right out the window and you're in it to eliminate the threat by any means necessary, so that you go home at the end of the shift.

But here is some "street theory" for everyone to consider: 3 good, fast hits with 9mm that expands to .70" each (like Speer GD or Federal HST) yields 2.1" of total expansion area. This is SUPERIOR to 2 good, fast hits with .45 ACP that expands to .90" each, which gives you 1.8" of total expansion area.

By the same token, the only guaranteed single shot stop is if the brain or spinal cord are destroyed. Not even destroying the heart can guarantee an instant stop.

@C hawk Glock: in the deep South, winters are mild at best. However, we do have days where the temps can dip into the teens. Weather aside, for whatever reason, blacks tend to wear a ton of clothing in the colder months. I am comfortable in short sleeves when it is 32* outside, but some people walk around looking like Eskimos in furry parkas.
 
#8 ·
But here is some "street theory" for everyone to consider: 3 good, fast hits with 9mm that expands to .70" each (like Speer GD or Federal HST) yields 2.1" of total expansion area. This is SUPERIOR to 2 good, fast hits with .45 ACP that expands to .90" each, which gives you 1.8" of total expansion area.
Whoa, back up the math train. You are simply adding the diameters, which might be a valid comparison if each hit was right next to the other, making a nice perforation pattern. But, the area of those (overall size of holes) still favors the two .45 shots. Remember the the old PI*r^2 thing? Three 9mm at .70 have total area of 1.16 sq/in, while the two .45 at .90 have a total area of 1.27 sq/in.

That puts us back into the numbers game which really is immaterial. I think a BG bleeding from three holes is better than just two holes. And hey, the 9mm pistol usually lets you put a lot more holes in the guy before needing to reload.

Sorry, the math teacher in me just couldn't let that go by.
 
#6 ·
I started off with .45's (G30, USP, 1911) thinking there isn't anything better. I recently bought my first 9mm (G19) and have been carrying it a lot. I can shoot it more accurately, faster. Not to say I can shoot 9mm more accurately than .45, I shoot them the same as far as accuracy goes during slow fire. But fast fire, 9mm wins, easily. More capacity in a thinner package. More shots on target faster.

I will say I think all things being equal, a .45 have the advantage over 9mm in "wounding" power, or whatever as well as barriers. But in the real world, the difference will be negligible if not non-existent. With the current bullet technology 9mm is better than ever. I currently carry either a S&W 442, G19 or G30. Have plenty of faith in either caliber, even the .38
 
#7 ·
I appreciate your observations. If you boil it all down, it reinforces the notion that there is no magic bullet, and clinging to one caliber to the exclusion of others won't save your hide.

We can continue to debate the "optimum" sidearm and caliber, but at the end of the day I doubt we can conclusively state that one caliber or one firearm trumps all others. My hope is that your post serves to keep people's minds open.
 
#12 ·
It still all comes down to this:

Carry the largest caliber that you can shoot quickly yet accurately and can afford to practice a lot with.

For some guys this will be 9mm, 40sw, 45acp or 10mm.

I carry 9mm and am fine with that - I shoot it well and am confident with it. But, if I could shoot and control .40sw equally, you bet I'd be carrying a G27 over my G26.
 
#13 ·
I liked your post, good info, even though I do carry a .40. I really liked the "DRT", I'll use that one! :35:
 
#15 · (Edited)
Nice post that sums up the obvious: A good hit with any caliber will stop the fight; a bad hit with any caliber will not. Nice perspective from one who's "been there, done that." The is no magic caliber or bullet.

DRT . . . I like that.
 
#18 ·
I spend probably too much time on the range, if there is such a thing. I have found that I can hit quickly and accurately with my rounds of choice, .357 SIG and .45 ACP, so that is what I carry. I carried a 9mm for several years and would have no problem doing it again, I just feel like the rounds I chose give me a slight advantage.
 
#19 ·
A word of objection is in order

Officer Wolfe, I appreciate your efforts as a police officer. I’m retired from federal law enforcement and I honor all those who stand between chaos and civilization. I will pray for you and your work.
Having said that, if I were your superior, you’d re-write this report from the beginning.
CDWolfe said:
I have no videos, pdf links, official sounding documents, or a doctor on standby to support what I am about to say.
That I believe without question.

CDWolfe said:
I … have 8 years as a police officer … 5 years of patrol, for the past 3 years I have been assigned to the crime scene unit (CSI) and have real world experience with seeing people who are DRT (dead right there) from gunshot wounds.
So, your experience is with people who are already dead. Not living, fighting, hostile people, but corpses. Okay, nothing new yet. Nearly all the self-appointed ‘experts’ in the field deal with dead bodies.

CDWolfe said:
1. I used to be a diehard .45 ACP fanboy…
Translated into the common tongue, you never were much of a shooter and you bought a .45 ACP pistol thinking it was magical and would make up for your inadequacy. You admit this inadequacy when you later in this paragraph decline to practice more in order to learn to shoot properly.
You are correct in that the .45 ACP cartridge is magical. It isn’t. It is merely the best of all the semi-automatic self-defense rounds available.

CDWolfe said:
… until we started training "realistically."
Lord preserve us from ‘realistic’ training.

CDWolfe said:
We are now required to shoot in various positions, which include 2 handed isosceles stance, 1 hand-strong hand shooting, and 1 hand-weak hand (I am right handed so forced to shoot with left only). We shoot straight on target, from behind cover such as the patrol car's engine block, and from prone behind a curb.
Yeah, I especially like the ‘prone behind a curb’ position. So realistic.

CDWolfe said:
Ranges are anywhere from 25 yards out to point blank.
I wonder if you have any clue what the term ‘point blank’ means? Your statement here means you do not shoot at any range LESS than 25 yards.

CDWolfe said:
I can't hit crap beyond 7 yards with 1 hand-weak hand, shooting a .45 ACP.
Which confirms my earlier comment about you not being much of a shooter.

CDWolfe said:
It feels heavy, wobbly, and awkward.
To be honest, it did to me too. Until I started working at it.

CDWolfe said:
I can get better with practice but why risk my life to this phenomenon.
Yeah. Sure.

CDWolfe said:
2. A .40 S&W has more recoil thus slower, ACCURATE follow-ups than the 9mm or .45 ACP.
Nope. I have two handguns in 9x19 caliber, two in .40 S&W and – hmmm – several more in .45 ACP. The statement you make is untrue. Not just untrue, but nonsense.

CDWolfe said:
This is a fact and why I do not like .40 S&W.
It is a fallacy based on the inadequate opinion of an inadequate shooter. At this point, your opinion is pretty much drawn from your imagination.

CDWolfe said:
3. In "Top Cop" competitions hosted by my dept., it's ALWAYS the 9mm LEOs that win those things. Better control, faster follow-up shots, more accurate "high stress" bullet placement.
One wonders how the competitions are designed. If the shooting problems all require multiple shot bursts for winning scores, I can see why the 9x19 shooters win. I’ve shot in many competitions that were designed around a high capacity, low recoil pistol rather than actual situations.

CDWolfe said:
Having said all this, I recently sold my SF XD 45 and bought a GLOCK 17 Gen4 9mm.
Oh, my stars and garters! He’s gone from a“.45 fanboy’ to a ‘Glock fanboy’! Gads.

He talks about how a .45 HP failed to penetrate heavy clothing and reach the heart of a shooting recipient. So? There are cases of criminals being shot in the chest with a load of 00 buckshot and outrunning the officer who shot them. Sooner or later, everything happens; meaning, everything fails.
The man shot fifteen or more times with various calibers and finally stopped with a shot from a .38 Special? So? There are instances of the same thing happening and the shootee finally being dispatched with a single round from a .32 ACP pistol. Without context, the full story of the incident, the information is meaningless. To explain, the circumstance I cited happened in the Second World War; a French resistance fighter was cornered by a German infantry squad and shot multiple times. He was finished off by the officer accompanying the squad shooting the Frenchman in the back of the head.
I’ve heard the fifteen shots or more story several times with the final ‘stopping’ shot being delivered by a .45 ACP, a .38 Special, a 9x19 and several others. It’s probably been true in most of those cases. But the reality is, a person who has been shot multiple times is fading by any standard.

Here’s another good, meaningless bit of ‘evidence’:
CDWolfe said:
I have seen some cheap 9mm ammo that was a 1 hit stop after Joe-Thug shot John-Thug in the heart...DRT.
Yup. No doubt Joe-Thug obtained some 9x19 FMJ ammo from somewhere, approached John-Thug and shot him center chest at cussing distance without warning. No doubt John-Thug died from the interference caused to the heart.
Does this recommend the 9x19 round as a manstopper? No, it doesn’t. How long did John-Thug cling to life after being shot? Did he knife Joe-Thug as the final item on his bucket list? Is this a ‘self-defense’ shooting in the legitimate sense of the word? (“He’d have killed me if he had the chance!” is not normally considered legitimate self defense.)

That’s enough. I could dismantle the rest of the silliness in the original post, but why bother? If one looks long enough, one finds all sorts of anomalies in every facet of human conduct; including self-defense shootings.

CDWolfe said:
Take it for what it's worth from a "real world" cop with CSI experience.
Officer Wolfe, I hope you process evidence and write reports better than this posting shows; I truly hope you know more about evidence handling, writing reports and court testimony than you do about handguns and shooting.
 
#21 ·
ANY bullet, ANY caliber could potentially be a 'one shot kill'. It's all about shot placement. If you're under fire, the only thing you can really do is hope that you make it count.

My 12ga Remington could be the gun that makes a one shot kill on the guy coming in the door unwanted. Or, (in my opinion) it would more likely be from one of my .45ACPs. Or my .357Mag. Or even from my .22lr Savage rifle.

There is one 'magic bullet', or even 'magic caliber' that will make the difference- the caliber that you shoot best.
 
#22 ·
So, let me get this right. If I use a 12 ga w/slugs in the house, an AR10 308 outside, and a 45 on the street, am I a fanboy times three?
 
#45 ·
fanboy? I think not, Gunthorp

Not by me, Gunthorp. You're only a fanboy if you are so insecure you have to ridicule anyone who would even think of using something else, and you cannot consider the thought there may be another solution.

Sounds to me like you've though things out. Now the only problem is - for all of us - to practice with one's chosen armament until we are as good as they are. I'm still working on it.
 
#24 ·
Do you mean I should carry more then one bullet in my shirt pocket? LOL

There are an infinite amount of possibiltys of a bad situation happening, I am far from being an expert, but I will do everything I can to have the edge needed to defend my family. I try to use good coman sense on what it would take to do this, but nothing is fool proof. Just my 2 cents...

practice, practice, practice.
 
#25 ·
Normally I do not respond to vultures who have nothing better to do than to try and pick someone apart. However, I will do a little follow up regarding "Archie" and his post.

ASSumptions are no way to try and prove a point or win a debate. That usually wind up making you look foolish. Apparently you missed the part where I said these were random thoughts typed out. I was unaware I was back in college taking English 102 and had to have correct grammar and proper format.

I also never said I was a range instructor and came up with the curb cover training exercise. The point behind the exercise was that going prone behind a curb was better than not having any cover at all. Any "former" law enforcement officer should have recognized that instantly.

I also never stated whether or not I was involved with shootings. I was just citing things I have seen. I do not talk about my cases, especially if they are still pending.

To say I am not a shooter is a stretch considering I have won Top Cop competitions, am prior military 11 Bravo (army infantry), reload my own ammo and shoot constantly, and am comfortable shooting any caliber. What I said was that I was not that good shooting 1 handed shots with my weak hand (left hand) as I had never trained that way and it was an eye opener. I learned my limitations and adjusted accordingly. Again, any prior LEO should have recognized that as well.

Realistic training is designed to get you thinking outside of the box. This is why we use simunition now during exercises. I guess you're just a tad too old to have enjoyed modern training techniques.

The 25 yards to point blank might have been missing a comma, but again, I was unaware I was in E 102.

Yes, 9mm have less recoil than a .45 and much less than a .40, and as a result a 9mm has faster, accurate follow up shots...this has been proven numerous times over so I won't even bother trying to explain it to a dinosaur who is dead set in his ways. I am not talking about some expert competition shooter who has a fine tuned pistol.

I chose the GLOCK after firing several different pistols. The GLOCK had the best "feel" to me, which is the main reason I went with it. Ridicule me if you want for choosing what I was the most comfortable with. :rolleyes:

I think you missed the main theme behind my original post. It's not about caliber, it's about control and being able to hit the target in order to stop the threat. Don't bother trying to fire back; I'll be ignoring your posts from now on because I have no time for those who try and put others down for no reason other than they are full of ASSumptions and have nothing better to do to make themselves feel high and mighty.

Cheers.
 
#29 ·
Normally I do not respond to vultures who have nothing better to do than to try and pick someone apart. However, I will do a little follow up regarding "Archie" and his post.
And here you are, clicking "post".

Welcome to the forum. Please remember that opinions are like... well you get the picture.

In my case, I have Springfield XDs in .40, one Service (4") and one Subcompact (3"). I take followup shots with it far faster than I think is necessary for defensive purposes... though I did shoot a 9mm version of the subcompact once, and the followups were faster.

I just got my hands on a Kahr 9mm pocket gun. I went with that over .40 because I figured recoil would make a much bigger difference. My LGS owner has a PM40, and confirmed that, he said if he were buying it again, he'd buy a 9mm himself.

The one thing that might get me carrying a full size 9mm in the future is magazine capacity over my .40s. A full size .40 carries between 12 and 14 rounds, and a full size 9mm carries 15-20... that's a lot of extra shots, especially since I carry two mags. Then again, what are the real odds of a civilian getting into a protracted shootout? Pretty slim, AFAIK.
 
#26 ·
Sometimes it just doesn't matter what the argument is, some people will do everything in their power to pick it apart. Whether either opinion is right or wrong doesn't really matter to some, and sometimes both opinions can be "correct".


Anyways, I like my 9mm with 147gr rounds. My experience is very limited in handgun calibers so I'll just leave it at that.
 
#28 ·
Now we're cooking.... I've got dibs on the front row seat.
 
#32 ·
Just like multistage said,choose a round you are comfortable with,the g17 likes,then if the time comes and you need to defend yourself,dont fire one round,you need "Multiple Stimulous",until the threat is stopped,remember to incorporate this in your training.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 64zebra
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top