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9mm Luger via a LEO's perspective

35K views 209 replies 97 participants last post by  AdamSean 
#1 ·
I have no videos, pdf links, official sounding documents, or a doctor on standby to support what I am about to say. I do however, have 8 years as a police officer under my belt with one of the highest crime rated cities in the southern U.S. After 5 years of patrol, for the past 3 years I have been assigned to the crime scene unit (CSI) and have real world experience with seeing people who are DRT (dead right there) from gunshot wounds. I also have to deal with our coroner's office before/during/after autopsies, and I get the task of handling all the evidence from said cases. On to my observations...

1. I used to be a diehard .45 ACP fanboy until we started training "realistically." We are now required to shoot in various positions, which include 2 handed isosceles stance, 1 hand-strong hand shooting, and 1 hand-weak hand (I am right handed so forced to shoot with left only). We shoot straight on target, from behind cover such as the patrol car's engine block, and from prone behind a curb. Ranges are anywhere from 25 yards out to point blank. I can't hit crap beyond 7 yards with 1 hand-weak hand, shooting a .45 ACP. It feels heavy, wobbly, and awkward. I can get better with practice but why risk my life to this phenomenon.

2. A .40 S&W has more recoil thus slower, ACCURATE follow-ups than the 9mm or .45 ACP. This is a fact and why I do not like .40 S&W.

3. In "Top Cop" competitions hosted by my dept., it's ALWAYS the 9mm LEOs that win those things. Better control, faster follow-up shots, more accurate "high stress" bullet placement.

Having said all this, I recently sold my SF XD 45 and bought a GLOCK 17 Gen4 9mm. I have always used the Speer GD ammo in my .45, so I figured I'd go with some Speer GD 9mm, with the recommended 124g +P stuff. After all, P.D.s such as NY and NJ use them. Then I landed on an article discussing the use of 147g ammo. I had heard of 147g before, but it was several years ago and the data was not that great. Recent testing and bullet design have greatly improved this round to the degree that the following is now "statistically" a common finding:

1. 124g +P has slightly better expansion.
2. 147g has slightly better penetration.

There's even 147g +P out now.

So what do you want in a 9mm designed for stopping power?

1. At least 12" of penetration.
2. Consistent expansion (.60 is nice, .70 is better).
3. Non-separation of bullet/jacket.
4. Being accurate whether it is 2 handed or 1 handed shooting...PoA = PoI.

There is no magic bullet that is the "do all, be all, end all" in a pistol caliber. Weather affects bullet dynamics just as much as the weight of the bullet. 147g SHOULD be more effective in cold weather due to having slightly better penetration (think heavy clothing), but this is not a guarantee. At the same time, against bare skin or in warm months, 124 +P SHOULD be better because of the slightly better expansion. Ultimately you have to be able to hit what you are aiming at, and keep putting rounds on target until the threat is stopped.

I have seen a man that was hit over 15x by numerous rounds to include .45 ACP, .40 S&W and 9mm, but he would not drop. No one was getting good hits on vitals. Then an old school revolver shooter put one in the heart with a .38 SPL and the guy dropped DRT.

I have seen .40 S&W over-penetrate through soft flesh and go in one side and out the other.

I have seen .45 ACP JHP not make it to the heart after traveling through a heavy coat, 3 shirts, and some thermal underwear and the guy ran off and went to the hospital on his own.

I have seen some cheap 9mm ammo that was a 1 hit stop after Joe-Thug shot John-Thug in the heart...DRT.

A lot of this is random thoughts and experiences typed out, but I wanted to make a case from real world experiences that it does not matter what you choose to carry, just make sure you can hit what you are aiming at and to keep on shooting until the bad guy is no longer a threat. We do not train to fire 1 shot, look at the target to see if it is a 1 hit stop, and then to react with some more shots. We shoot MULTIPLE times until the threat has been eliminated. The argument for single shot 9mm vs .45 is just stupid.

In the end what I chose to go with after hours of personal testing was the Federal HST 9mm 124g +P for warm weather and the Federal HST 9mm 147g for cold weather. This decision was reached based on what I could control the BEST in all shooting scenarios, what had great penetration, expansion, and no jacket separation, and what offered PoA = PoI consistency. I am sure the Speer GD is fabulous in 9mm, but my personal research and testing found that the Federal HST was marginally better.

Take it for what it's worth from a "real world" cop with CSI experience.
 
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#35 ·
This is a very interesting post for me. Twice I have been on the range with my G22. Although I can hit my target, follow up shots are slow. I find the .40 harsh to shoot and was seriously considering selling it and gettting the G19. I've also decided on the EMP and will most likely be getting that in a 9mm too. I used to get caught up in the caliber arguments and am now finally forced to consider what I can shoot well with and control. As much as I like the G22 it will be the G19 for me soon.
 
#36 ·
A lot of this is random thoughts and experiences typed out, but I wanted to make a case from real world experiences that it does not matter what you choose to carry, just make sure you can hit what you are aiming at and to keep on shooting until the bad guy is no longer a threat. We do not train to fire 1 shot, look at the target to see if it is a 1 hit stop, and then to react with some more shots.
Very well said. Stop the threat by hitting your target whether it's with 9mm, 45, rocks, sticks, rotten eggs, or my teenagers dirty socks. You ain't gonna hurt it if at first you can't hit it
 
#38 ·
I think those of us in LE see pretty much the same thing over the years, all of which doesn't answer any questions as to caliber choice or design of bullet.

I agree with the 9mm as a good round, particularly in the heavy loadings.

What I don't like is the assumption that one who uses a bigger caliber may not get as many hits on target. This is purely a training issue. More hits on target is something that we hear of alot these days, mostly perpetrated by fast shooting, low drag, so called defensive combat schools, who in actuality, bear little resemblemce with the typical civillian self defense needs of today. Actually, they are conducted more like police/ military needs.

The reality of all of this translates into everyday Sam and Suzy Citizen, reading and taking all of this in, and feel that if they are not armed with something resembling a military or police sidearm, will not make it back from the grocery store, or run out of ammo before they can get to their car at Wally World.

It is a shame, that so many have fallen into this BS. I believe that just about every single person would be just as well off armed with a good 38spl revolver, loaded with some standard velocity heavy lead swc bullets, that they could shoot cheaply, and shoot proficiently , with an emphasis on making the first shot count.

Many people just buy these high tech , hi cap bottom feeders because they just like guns. Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with big bullets either.

But God help us, when we allow people to believe if they don't have this gun, in that caliber that they are not well armed.
 
#180 ·
and

I have been following this thread with great interest. I myself am "Sam Citizen". I once fell in that trap of thinking I had to carry something resembling a military or police sidearm. Then I got to thinking, "Wait a minute. How much is my life like a real police officer's?"

I have seldom lived in high-crime areas or had to be around them. When a crime is happening, I am not sworn to run toward it. I don't make routine traffic stops and have to hope my bullet will penetrate auto body sheet metal and glass in case someone from inside a car wants to kill me. I don't imagine myself having to get behind cover and trade rounds to keep a bad guy at bay while I wait for backup to arrive. It is not my job to capture people and handcuff them. So do I really need a service semi-auto and a caliber just because Sam and Suzy Law Enforcement carry them?

It's funny. Let me ask you folks who may be reading this post. When you start shopping for a personal automobile, do you look for one that has a piece of plexiglass between the front and back seats? If my car doesn't have to be cop-like, do I need my protection piece to be cop-like? Maybe, maybe not.

What I actually need is a practical lifesaving emergency tool that I can shoot competently so that if I find myself in the unfortunate position of having to shoot someone, I can do so accurately and competently. Chances are, if I have to pull a roscoe on someone, my situation may likely be different than what police often contend with.

The comment about private citizens and .38 Special intrigued me, too....mainly because I have seen it other places than here. I wonder sometimes if average people would be better off taking the extra money they spend on a semi-auto and spending it instead on training ammunition. And how many long, protracted gunfights (the kind of situation a high-capacity semi is favored for) does an average private citizen find himself in, anyway? I'll tell you what- if we were all carryin' what Elliot Ness and the old boys once did, we'd sure be makin' those shots count, huh?
 
#39 ·
Not going argue this one.
My Para SF double stack 45 shot very smooth and repeated shots with it are easier than mt LCP380.
Problem is the Para is to darn big for me as a CC most of the times I settle for a 9mm most of the time.
124 JHP if that don't do it the I guess I am done for.
 
#42 ·
CDWolfe - thank you for your well thought out, informative post on an obviously sensitive topic. Don't let the idiots who want to pick apart your post and question your ability to follow the Federal Rules of Evidence discourage you.

For me, I am comfortable with the ballistics of a 9mm and more importantly, comfortable with my budget to shoot it on a regular basis. This may not apply to all, but my pockets do have bottoms. For my 'range budget' the ability to send 4000 9mm down range + a lesson with a good instructor every month or so vs 3000 of a .45 without any ongoing instruction is enough to make the 9mm my choice. FOR ME, A capable ammo combined with significantly more practice outweighs a more potent ammo alone. This is the same reason I have overlooked a pocket 380, while it may be more than capable, the increased ammo cost and taking away practice time from my primary carry weapon did not outweigh the occasional convenience of a smaller gun.
 
#44 ·
Perhaps a vulture dinosaur?

No one whizzed in my Wheaties. However, I take very serious exception to someone pretending to have expertise and then issuing nonsense. Especially when the nonsense will get my people injured or killed. You see, I've worked for Officer Wolfe's older brother. Or someone who could pass for his older brother.

What Officer Wolfe expressed in his original posting is merely his opinion, padded with the veneer of being a real police officer. He writes as if to set all of us ignernt people right, and does not present any serious facts or evidence to sustain his claims. Some of his claims, like my .40 S&W pistol recoils more than a .45 ACP, are just flat wrong.

Did anyone notice that? Did anyone read my entire post, other than Glockman10mm? Did anyone read Officer Wolfe's? He presents 'observations' which are rather slanted views from a very limited perspective. No argument, no logic, no chain of thought. I'm not quibbling over his grammar, I'm bothered by his lack of observation and articulation. And - sorry to sound picky - he uses phrases he does not understand. (Be brave someone, look up the definition of 'point blank'.)

I have preached the doctrine of good solid hits for years. Nothing will replace proper shooting. However, Officer Wolfe implies the only way to get good solid hits to revert to a lesser caliber. Sorry, that will not do. High capacity will not do. The .45 ACP he gave up on - rather than practice and learn better - wasn't magic and neither is the 9x19 he carries now because he thinks it will make him a better shooter. It won't, by the way.

I am a dinosaur. I wear that title with honor. Being a dinosaur means I know how to shoot the rounds I've got, rather than plan a fast reload so I can blaze away some more. Being a dinosaur means I've learned from older dinosaurs, and not the current crop of training 'experts' who ignore all the hard learned lessons us old dinosaurs learned.

Officer Wolfe won't read this. He will just comfort himself with calling me a 'vulture', since I disagree with him and have reasons for my opinions other than unexamined prejudices. I won't swallow his poorly considered thoughts without question. His ego is far too fragile and he knows he's lacking. Which will prevent him from admitting any mistakes or deficiencies he has and correcting them. He'll probably have a long career and be a 'manager' someday. Too bad for his subordinates.

But I'm not trying to either offend Officer Wolfe or even get him to change what he thinks. I'm far more concerned about the other people reading this thread; I'd prefer you all to hear another side of things and find out things on your own. For that matter, don't accept everything I say; try it out and work at the problem instead of being convinced there's a golden gun or magic bullet. You're all big kids, think for yourselves.
 
#57 · (Edited)
Allow me to apply my post-scalpel here a bit, if you abide turn-about as fair play…

No one whizzed in my Wheaties. However, I take very serious exception to someone pretending to have expertise and then issuing nonsense. Especially when the nonsense will get my people injured or killed. You see, I've worked for Officer Wolfe's older brother. Or someone who could pass for his older brother.
Are you suggesting that anyone not armed with a .45 ACP will cause people to be injured or killed, whereas if the had been armed with a .45 ACP those injuries/deaths would have been prevented? I’m very curious as to how one might reach such an absolute determination…

What Officer Wolfe expressed in his original posting is merely his opinion, padded with the veneer of being a real police officer. He writes as if to set all of us ignernt people right, and does not present any serious facts or evidence to sustain his claims. Some of his claims, like my .40 S&W pistol recoils more than a .45 ACP, are just flat wrong.
Everything you have expressed is merely your personal opinion, though stated as FACT, and padded with your veneer of being a former police officer who prides himself on refusing to learn anything not taught 20+ years ago. Which is more valid?

Also, the average muzzle energy of the .40S&W is around 150 ft/lbs higher than the average muzzle energy of the .45 ACP. Please provide the physics you have employed to determine that there is no way for the round with the higher energy on one end to not have higher energy on the other end…

Did anyone notice that? Did anyone read my entire post, other than Glockman10mm? Did anyone read Officer Wolfe's? He presents 'observations' which are rather slanted views from a very limited perspective. No argument, no logic, no chain of thought. I'm not quibbling over his grammar, I'm bothered by his lack of observation and articulation. And - sorry to sound picky - he uses phrases he does not understand. (Be brave someone, look up the definition of 'point blank'.)
I read it, but I dismissed everything you said out of hand as soon as you claimed the .45ACP was "the best" semi-auto round ever to have existed. "The best" is a matter of circumstance, and depends on far too many variables for anyone to claim, ever, that one round is "the best" across all spectra and in every situation. Anyone with the abject lack of humility required to make statements like that – coupled with all the other condescension and insulting language – merits very little respect for their opinions, as far as I’m concerned.

And yes, he misstated the ranges at which his agency qualifies. That hardly makes anything and everything he says invalid. And yes, also, the true definition of point blank has been wholly eclipsed by the “commonly accepted” definition, but I doubt that more than a handful of us here – on a forum devoted to such things – knew the true definition without looking it up. Again, hardly cause for personal attacks.

I have preached the doctrine of good solid hits for years. Nothing will replace proper shooting. However, Officer Wolfe implies the only way to get good solid hits to revert to a lesser caliber. Sorry, that will not do. High capacity will not do. The .45 ACP he gave up on - rather than practice and learn better - wasn't magic and neither is the 9x19 he carries now because he thinks it will make him a better shooter. It won't, by the way.
But, wait…isn’t the .45 ACP “the best?” Isn’t that as close to magic as we can hope for? After all, it’s “the best.” It’s amazing that so many individuals, police departments, federal agencies, militaries, criminals, and others who routinely use pistols as part of their daily life have missed this obvious fact! Surely, after reading your post, they will all see the error of their ways and change over immediately. After all, who would knowingly choose anything other than “the best?”

I am a dinosaur. I wear that title with honor. Being a dinosaur means I know how to shoot the rounds I've got, rather than plan a fast reload so I can blaze away some more. Being a dinosaur means I've learned from older dinosaurs, and not the current crop of training 'experts' who ignore all the hard learned lessons us old dinosaurs learned.
That’s one definition. Another might be that a “dinosaur” is too lazy, self-righteous, or otherwise emotionally invested in their own opinions to look objectively at anyone else’s. All the battlefields of all the world are littered with the bones of those sorts of “dinosaurs.”

Officer Wolfe won't read this. He will just comfort himself with calling me a 'vulture', since I disagree with him and have reasons for my opinions other than unexamined prejudices. I won't swallow his poorly considered thoughts without question. His ego is far too fragile and he knows he's lacking. Which will prevent him from admitting any mistakes or deficiencies he has and correcting them. He'll probably have a long career and be a 'manager' someday. Too bad for his subordinates.
Interestingly, I was just thinking the same thing, for your subordinates. Yes, god save them from realistic training. Yes, god save them from seeking whatever cover is available. Save them from the death and dismemberment that will surely befall them immediately upon carrying anything other than a .45 ACP… Sigh.

But I'm not trying to either offend Officer Wolfe or even get him to change what he thinks. I'm far more concerned about the other people reading this thread; I'd prefer you all to hear another side of things and find out things on your own. For that matter, don't accept everything I say; try it out and work at the problem instead of being convinced there's a golden gun or magic bullet. You're all big kids, think for yourselves.
“Don’t accept everything I say” will be easy advice to follow, indeed.
 
#46 ·
Dinosaur? Hell yes I'm a dinosaur too! And proud of it. It has taken me years to get comfortable in my own skin, having spent countless $$ to make sure I had the latest greatest and most popular or exotic gun, and the most updated designer ammo that was guaranteed to be the better than the last umpteen end all offerings in bullet design.

Through my satisfying myself with the effects of common simple bullet designs on medium and large game over the years, I have decided for myself with no reservations, that effectiveness of ammo on caliber has more to do with proper penetration and placement than energy figures and flowery expanded bullets.

Being a dinosaur has it's advantages. It means you can finally just be happy with the things you like, secure in your knowledge that it will work for you, and be done with the search for giants, mythical creatures, and magic bullets and calibers.
 
#49 ·
I'll tell you why I'm moving towards 9mm. Price of ammo & magazine capacity.

As far as which caliber is better in a fight? I don't give a hoot if you're using 9mm, .40 cal, .45 ACP, .357 mag or .38 spl. In the scheme of things, any one of those calibers with decent, modern designed factory ammunition has about as much chance at stopping someone as the next one. And each one has about the same amount of chance of failing to stop as the next one.

I shoot my .45 ACP's about as good as 9mm when I'm spending time practice with them. I shoot 9mm better and quicker than my .40 cal G-23. And in the scheme of seeing things from "the big picture," I don't think one will make a lick of difference than the other in a real life gunfight. Because there is always going to be some modicum of Karma, Luck, & "The Murphy factor" in any given situation. So in the scheme of things, there's really no way to quantify such data.

So, for me... 9mm is a bit cheaper to shoot, and generally speaking has a higher magazine capacity. So, I've pretty much transitioned to 9mm for EDC (M&P 9 full size or the XD9sc). For a BUG, usually an LCP in .380 but also the SP-101 rides back-up from time to time.

I'll still keep my .45ACP's and probably my .40 cal just because variety is nice and I can be somewhat moody from time to time.
 
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#51 ·
"[Some of his claims, like my .40 S&W pistol recoils more than a .45 ACP, are just flat wrong.]"
Ohh Archie, Some would disagree with Mr. Expert Gunfighter/Preacher, On that statement there ; ) PS Me being one
H/D
 
#52 ·
It's a matter of perception but I just don't see the .40 S&W as having such fearsome recoil. It seems mild-mannered and pleasant to shoot to this dinosaur. At least it's been so in any of several different .40 pistols I've had the privilege of using. It's recoil seems distinctly milder than a .45 ACP pistol using full-power 230 grain ball ammo. It's one of the best handgun cartridges I've never owned. One of these days I'll get around to picking up a good single action automatic in .40 S&W.

There's not a thing wrong with 9mm but it is a cartridge that I greatly enjoy loathing simply because it's been bally-hooed and blown out of proportion so thoroughly since the very early 1980s. I have four 9mms around here and handload and shoot a decent amount of 9mm ammo over the course of a year. It's a adequate, middling sort of round but is hugely overrated, looming large in the minds of millions of shooters while it really offers terminal ballistics no better than the best .38 Special loads. In fact the 9mm is probably the single most overrated handgun cartridge ever popularized. 9mm's main attribute is the automatic pistols that will hold a whole lot of 'em. The cartridge itself is nothing special. It offers mild recoil that is controllable by most shooters along with perfectly adequate power.

While there's nothing wrong with 9mm, I like the looks of both the .40 S&W and the .45 ACP in concealable automatics better.
 
#55 ·
It's a adequate, middling sort of round but is hugely overrated, looming large in the minds of millions of shooters while it really offers terminal ballistics no better than the best .38 Special loads.
I need to stop you right there. Bullet technology has come a long way since the 1988 Miami shootout. For starters, let's compare 2 of the most widely used premium cartridges by law enforcement today: Speer Gold Dot 230g JHP .45 ACP and the Federal HST 124g +P JHP 9mm.

You can check out Youtube videos of both of these in various tests. What most tests will show is that the GD .45 has consistent expansion in the ballpark of .75" through denim and into gel. No jacket separation, excellent penetration, very reliable. The HST 9mm also comes out with expansion rates that hover around the .70"-.75" mark on the exact same tests, without jacket separation and penetration 12" or beyond. As a matter of fact, these are the numbers that we have gotten in our own lab tests. This is obviously far better than your claim of "no better than the best .38 Special loads."

I am not trying to call you out or put you on the spot, but modern technology has leveled much of the playing field. The data is there for anyone to research. Either one of the above mentioned cartridges is an excellent choice and will get the job done. Keep a few things in mind:

1. No pistol round will knock a man down. They won't spin you around, and they won't blow arms/legs off. The term to use today is stopping power.
2. Military stories of 9mm vs .45 are not a good source of comparison because the military can't use JHP. They are stuck using ball ammo, and yes in that scenario .45 > 9mm.

:comeandgetsome:
 
#53 ·
Opinions are only that. Just kill the BG until he's DRT (just had to use that).
 
#56 ·
CDWolfe, the 9mm still does not offer anything over the 38spl, other than hi capacity handguns so chambered.

The point that bmcgilvray made is absolutely correct. Compare any bullet you like, for instance 9mm Gold dot or 38sPl Gold Dot, and the ballistics of the 9mm are no better than the 38spl.

As a matter of fact, the 38spl remains supreme due to it's larger powder capacity, and ability to fire heavier bullets of any design without feeding issues. In a stout framed gun, the 38spl can be handloaded to 38-44 velocities that are well into 357 magnum territory. And one would have to be ballistically retarded to argue the 9mm compares to the 357 magnum.

Load that 38 with 5.4 grns of Unique under a 160 weight Keith bullet and it will make ANY 9mm loading look like a " pop " gun. And that, is a fact.
 
#63 ·
Glockman, I thought you were pretty cool. But, then you went and used a term like "ballistically retarded", and it was even better than what I expected you might throw in there. I just want to thank you for almost making me spray my computer with Coke. :danceban:
 
#58 ·
Good post cdwolfe. Dont change your thoughts. I like standard 1911 gi spec .45's, however, i will never carry one for concealed carry. Not at you cant, but it just doesntwork for ME. I am new to concealed carry and am not too proud to admit it. I can shoot the .45 just as good as a 9mm. I also feel in my OPINION, that the .40 has more recoil than the .45ACP. I dont think it is bad but most and I say most because this is generally true, most shooters shoot the 9mm faster with more accurate follow up shots than a .45acp. I am looking at a Glock 19 or 26, or a Kahr CW9.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk
 
#59 ·
Now you've gone and upset OPFOR, so you're gonna get it! As for me, all this math and numbers is giving me a headache.:aargh4: I feel the need to blow a hole in something--a big one.
 
#60 ·
Gotta love a good ad hominum thread. IMHO after you'e done a lot of shooting, you can pick up any handgun, and after the first trigger break, you own it and dominate it. If you're new to the game, master dry fire, sighted fire, and then learn the recoil force cadence of your weapon/cartridge by close range point shooting as fast as you can pull the trigger with each hand. Finally, you're ready for fast flash sight work at longer ranges, if you think you'll be able to pull your focus off threat. Caliber is immaterial. Confidence via training and shooting from cover, when present, is everything.

For me, the size and weight of the handgun have as much to do with control as caliber wars. It's interesting to hear from LEO and military experts, but when a civilian student shows up with a tiny 380, 38spl, or 9mm, I know my work's cut out for me. From personal experience, I've had fewer problems with those carrying larger 45's. YMMV
 
#62 ·
Gotta love a good ad hominum thread. IMHO after you'e done a lot of shooting, you can pick up any handgun, and after the first trigger break, you own it and dominate it. If you're new to the game, master dry fire, sighted fire, and then learn the recoil force cadence of your weapon/cartridge by close range point shooting as fast as you can pull the trigger with each hand. Finally, you're ready for fast flash sight work at longer ranges, if you think you'll be able to pull your focus off threat. Caliber is immaterial. Confidence via training and shooting from cover, when present, is everything.

For me, the size and weight of the handgun have as much to do with control as caliber wars. It's interesting to hear from LEO and military experts, but when a civilian student shows up with a tiny 380, 38spl, or 9mm, I know my work's cut out for me. From personal experience, I've had fewer problems with those carrying larger 45's. YMMV

Same statement but with a new twist..... :lolp: friggin hilarious
 
#67 ·
Well, not quite. What Archie was saying was not only was the OP unclear/backwards about the ranges he was trying to determine, he also misused the phrase point blank. Today, the "common" definition of point blank is "really, really close," but that is not the historical or "true" definition. The historical definition is "any range so that the marksman does not have to account for the drop of the projectile in order to hit his target." Thus, depending on the weapon system and how it is zeroed, point blank could be quite a long distance, indeed.

It is a minor point, because (as we've seen), so few people know the "real" definition of point blank as to render the real definition worthless in most conversations....
 
#68 ·
Oh, I don't know. "Ballistically retarded" is so advanced over "ballistically challanged" in socially verbal tactical judo that its usage places the user on a higher plane of advanced consciousness, able to wield fearsome weapons of effective verbal dominance (i.e. it made the point better).

Anyway, I liked it.
 
#70 ·
Energy level statistics are only a very narrow window of judging a cartridges effectivness. While the energy levels may reflect a higher number with HP or Designer bullet design, the one thing that the 38spl has, and, can be purchased commercially, is the +p swc bullet, which is much more capable of straight line penetration, even after hitting bone, than any load the 9mm can in ammo commonly sold for it.

While the 9mm, is a fine and dandy round, but it is not really doing anything better than the 38spl. From the tests on medium game I have taken in the field, I would take the 38 with cast swc bullets anyday of the week.
However, when you have a pistol loaded with 15 rounds of 9mm, it offers other readily apparent advantages.

I guess my point is, the 9 is fine, but the 38 is great.
 
#71 ·
I guess my point is, the 9 is fine, but the 38 is great. For one guy, in one region, hunting medium game.
There, fixed that for ya. ;)
 
#75 ·
That's sensible. The air weight guns can be difficult to shoot as accurate, and the G19 is an awesome carry piece for all the right reasons. And certainly, the 9mm is up to the job.

Myself, I prefer accuracy over everything, so I prefer a 4 inch revolver. Personally, I have not found an auto that gives me the out of box accuracy that I prefer that a 4 inch revolver gives.

It's really what suits ones needs and desires in a carry gun. That's why it's hard to make do with just one.
 
#76 ·
From Gunthorp's guide to the gutterally germane;

Point Blank: Hold on range, where the trajectory rises or falls by an insignificant amount throughout the range

Point Blank: From contact to very close range (vernacular)

Point Blank: Point shooting with blanks, similar to a liberal's argument
 
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