any legal technicalities concerning handloads? - Page 2

any legal technicalities concerning handloads?

This is a discussion on any legal technicalities concerning handloads? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Thanks guys. I think SFury makes a point above that was my concern. I have many years of journalism experience and some of that was ...

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  1. #16
    Member Array lazytl's Avatar
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    Thanks guys. I think SFury makes a point above that was my concern. I have many years of journalism experience and some of that was on the police beat or working with other Law Enforcement agencies and I know it is always best in any investigation to keep things simple, honest, and above-board. I also know that within local communities and even within a precinct there can be a county attorney, police chief, mayor, or other official who has an attitude about concealed carry and/or handguns. That doesn't invalidate the use of hand loads by any means, but it seems wiser to go with manufactured ammunition. For example, if there was over-penetration and a person in the adjoining apartment was killed. A simple web search might find an earlier Internet post or Facebook comment by the shooter bragging about his hot, new load. A LEO friend of mine just told me today that the Internet is now one of his main tools in catching bad guys because the characters go on-line bragging about their crime. One of the things I've liked about this site the little I've been on it is the presence of professionals. Men who were/are LEOS, military, CCW instructors, etc... and in their posts you always seen that subtle sense of caution and common sense.


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array multistage's Avatar
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    Can't say I would run my own loads in a carry gun. I use the same stuff local LEO's run. If asked why, I can claim that it is cheap. I can get Rangers for 20 bucks a box.

  3. #18
    Member Array jasgo's Avatar
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    Really depends on the prosecutors involved too. Yes, they can go after you in court telling the jury that you shot someone with handloads more lethal than readily available commercial ammo and more deadly than the police use (at least in your mindset). Not only that, by handloading your carry rounds, the prosecutor could also tell the jury that you had premeditaton (to inhumanely kill or cripple). Would sound like a lot of hogwash to all of us but the jury may mostly be comprised of people who do not have or use guns much (through weak jury preselection or from a bad pool, or geographical region/city) and believe the prosecutor. That is the real crux of the matter. In court, the jury can also be told that self defense does not mean that you have to kill but only to the extent to allow yourself escape from harm but your deadly handloads were created by you to only kill. Kind of off topic but something to think about, it can also come down to how many shots that were used that will also define you to the jury. Use too many and you can be painted as someone mean and terrible in front of the jury.

    Way back in the past, I used to carry handloads to address a lack of commercial loadings but after considering the potential legal ramifications and now with the wide selection of commercial SD cartridges, I stopped using any handloads.

  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    Massad Ayoob made one point when he advised against handloaded ammunition,when Police reconstruct a crime scene if its a fairly close gun shot there will be powder stippling,if you were using X brand of ammo they can use a box of the same factory ammo to tell what distance you were when you fired.
    The specific case Mas addressed was basically this: a gun owner tried to grab a revolver out of the hands of his wife, who was holding it to her own head. The gun went off, and she died. The inability to analyze gunshot residue was a factor in the DA deciding to bring homicide charges against the husband, rather than rule the death a suicide. Our own Janq seems to have tracked down a description of that, and another handload related case, which he posted here:

    * Cases Where Handloads Caused Problems in Court by Mas Ayoob

    The short version is that handloaded ammo certainly can introduce complicating factors in a potential trial. Having taken two courses with Ayoob, I am perfectly happy using commercial rounds (Federal HST) in my defensive pistols.

    ETA: And, since I've now read all the way through Janq's repost, here is the original thread Ayoob posted on The Highroad:

    * THR - View Single Post - Are legal concerns over carrying handloads trivial?
    “What is a moderate interpretation of [the Constitution]? Halfway between what it says and [...] what you want it to say?” —Justice Antonin Scalia

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  5. #20
    Senior Member Array boscobeans's Avatar
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    Although I have been reloading since the sixties and have more faith in my handloads than commercial ammo I have to admit I wouldn't carry it for SD for all of the reasons against it that have been hashed over for years on this and other forums.

    About the Black Talons you have>>> I wouldn't carry them as well, because of all the baloney about them being like the blades of a blender.

    I carry (once they have proven to function in my pistols) the typical $20---$25 a box SD loads and usually they are the same as what the local PD's carry.

    OMO

    bosco

  6. #21
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    It is a lot of unvarnished BS!

    Any attorney worth his salt can convince a jury that a "righteous" shoot is just that. The ammunition used ins a justifiable SD shooting is irrelevant and, therefore, immaterial. Relevance only comes into play when justifying the shooting can be called into question. The old "he was loading this ammunition for the express purpose of killing" is ridiculous. OF COURSE YOU WERE TRYING TO KILL HIM! YOU SHOT HIM, DIDN'T YOU?!

    No crap, kids!

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  7. #22
    Member Array chasbo00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunfan View Post
    Any attorney worth his salt can convince a jury that a "righteous" shoot is just that. The ammunition used ins a justifiable SD shooting is irrelevant and, therefore, immaterial. Relevance only comes into play when justifying the shooting can be called into question.
    Glad to see someone is thinking logically.

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    As far as being able to get factory ammo and use it to test powder patterns ect., does each lot from the factory test exactly the same. If you are using some older factory ammo, are they going to be able to find it to test with? If it is a good shoot are they even going to want to test in the first place.

    I have said it before, but for the newer members. Mas and others aren't about the tell people to use reloaded ammo. They make their living by giving advice and training. If someone uses reloads, does something stupid or otherwise screws up, anyone think they wouldn't say. Hey Mas said it was ok. They are covering their own rear ends first and foremost.

    Could reloaded ammo be brought up in a SD shooting, sure, just like anything else could be brought up. Will it turn a good shoot into a bad one? I certainly don't think so.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  9. #24
    Member Array jasgo's Avatar
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    I wouldn't trust all judicial systems to always see things only in black or white even if a shooting is justified. A prosecutor with motivation (i.e. politically, election year, population demographics) and able to gather enough cumulative things to use against you (incl. "highly customized & deadly dum-dum handloaded bullets you can't buy"), you could be taken to court. Especially if there are no witnesses to testify in your favor (what if the only witnesses are the perpetrator's friends?) or if you made some innocent statements/demeanor that could be used against you. For a good high profile criminal defense attorney, you'll spend tens of thousands of dollars for trial and yet it would not be a sure thing. If it has to go to appeal, even more money. Imagine the emotional and financial stress on yourself and family for all that time. The prosecution does not reimburse you if unsuccessful in court and you really can't sue the prosecution for prosecuting you unless your legal rights were violated.

    I'd prefer to avoid providing the prosecution any amount of incendiary material to use when they are considering whether it could be a successful prosecution. The less there is to use, the better the chance that the prosecutor may decide trial would not be successful.

    A goal is to prevent trial. It's never an enjoyable experience going to court, criminal or civil. Even if you win and are found innocent, you still lose (financially and emotionally). On top of that, there is always the possibility of a civil suit (say if you paralyzed the perpetrator with a handload "customized to cripple").

  10. #25
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    any legal technicalities concerning handloads?


    None that concern me personally. I like carrying handloads.
    hayzor likes this.
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  11. #26
    Member Array chasbo00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasgo View Post
    I'd prefer to avoid providing the prosecution any amount of incendiary material to use when they are considering whether it could be a successful prosecution. The less there is to use, the better the chance that the prosecutor may decide trial would not be successful.
    People seem to worry about all manor of things that might conceivably be brought up by an overzealous prosecutor regarding a self defense shooting. Trigger pull weight, type of bullet, gun modifications, and level of training (both too much and too little) are just some of the concerns often cited. Personally, I think these concerns are silly. If you were legally authorized to use deadly force when you did so, then you should be OK from a legal standpoint - there are no guarantees though.

    If you want to worry about something in this legal arena, worry about knowing the laws and limitations on the use of deadly force in the state you live in plus those you travel in while armed.

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasgo View Post
    I wouldn't trust all judicial systems to always see things only in black or white even if a shooting is justified. A prosecutor with motivation (i.e. politically, election year, population demographics) and able to gather enough cumulative things to use against you (incl. "highly customized & deadly dum-dum handloaded bullets you can't buy"), you could be taken to court. Especially if there are no witnesses to testify in your favor (what if the only witnesses are the perpetrator's friends?) or if you made some innocent statements/demeanor that could be used against you. For a good high profile criminal defense attorney, you'll spend tens of thousands of dollars for trial and yet it would not be a sure thing. If it has to go to appeal, even more money. Imagine the emotional and financial stress on yourself and family for all that time. The prosecution does not reimburse you if unsuccessful in court and you really can't sue the prosecution for prosecuting you unless your legal rights were violated.

    I'd prefer to avoid providing the prosecution any amount of incendiary material to use when they are considering whether it could be a successful prosecution. The less there is to use, the better the chance that the prosecutor may decide trial would not be successful.

    A goal is to prevent trial. It's never an enjoyable experience going to court, criminal or civil. Even if you win and are found innocent, you still lose (financially and emotionally). On top of that, there is always the possibility of a civil suit (say if you paralyzed the perpetrator with a handload "customized to cripple").
    And all of these scenarios are with reloads only? Anything you just mentioned could take place with any type of ammo, even with the same ammo that cops use because you want to pretend to be a cop or vigilante.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  13. #28
    Member Array jasgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chasbo00 View Post
    People seem to worry about all manor of things that might conceivably be brought up by an overzealous prosecutor regarding a self defense shooting.
    An obvious example of an overzealous prosecutor was in the case involving some of the Duke college lacrosse players.

    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    And all of these scenarios are with reloads only? Anything you just mentioned could take place with any type of ammo, even with the same ammo that cops use because you want to pretend to be a cop or vigilante.
    True, all those scenarios could apply with any ammo (the man falsely accused in the 1996 Atlanta Olympics bombing was suspected due to thinking that he wanted to be a cop).

    I guess what I'm trying to express is KISS when it comes to ammo and possibly even equipment. I'm just of the opinion that trial can become a roll of the dice and the less you can be portrayed in any detrimental light, the better. Trial's going to be a combination of both the objective and the subjective with 12 persons of various personalities/gender/background that will decide the outcome.

    Maybe I'm too pragmatic as I believe the burden of proof falls on the victim that survives a SD shooting. I've taken the precaution to sit down with my preselected defense attorney (whose card I keep in my wallet) and discussed about lethal self defense in our locality and what to do if it ever happened. I didn't discuss equipment then, but I think he would tell me to be plain vanilla as much as possible. As a sidebar, by establishing a client relationship in advance and being a referral from my civil attorney who was his friend, he would know who I am if I had to call at night if something were to happen and payment would not be a question.

    I do respect everyone's opinions.

  14. #29
    Member Array swmft's Avatar
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    In Florida PIs and security guards are restricted to factory loads. CCW is not just guns in Florida it includes large mace ,pepper spray, knife with a blade more than three inches you could use tracer rounds, but why would you? If you are concerned about over penetration if your state allows use fragables; if not buy subsonic hollow points.
    Better 12 judging than 6 carrying

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