Thanks for the correction Fragman.
I wasn't sure about that. I'll try to remember that in the future.
This is a discussion on hollow points within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Thanks for the correction Fragman. I wasn't sure about that. I'll try to remember that in the future....
Thanks for the correction Fragman.
I wasn't sure about that. I'll try to remember that in the future.
IIRC you both are correct. Hague set the precedent and Geneva further defined it. I'll have to double check sources.
OK, I don't want to fight either. (When I want to fight, I go over to GT.)
This said, PT, you could not be more wrong; however, I will admit that your opinion is a very popular one. FMJ is NOT specifically designed to produce a through-and-through wound.
It needs to be appreciated that anytime you fire any bullet, the risk of pass-through exists. Please don't subscribe to the myth that HP's are, 'safer' and don't shoot-through; or that FMJ's are more dangerous and always keep right on penetrating. Each and every shot is a unique phenomenon that can and will produce erratic results.
As I previously mentioned, I do use FMJ in my 45 acp carry pistol. FMJ pistol ammo often yields bone damage that no other pistol bullet type can consistently produce. It will, also, penetrate certain barriers that would render HP's completely ineffective to stop the threat.
(Not sure about recent rounds like the FN 5.7x28mm; the jury's still out on this one.)
The reason I said I would use HP's in 9mm and 40 S&W is that these rounds, occasionally, exhibit marginal, 'dead-stop' performance. The reason I said I would use HP's in a 357 SIG is because this particular round is notorious for over-penetration; and, I don't want to help it along.
Then again I'm not a typical citizen out carrying a gun. I know how to shoot; and, I understand how and when to angle my shots. I, also, know when or when not to reach for a gun. This experience makes me an atypical CHL holder, and is the reason, 'Why' I have never recommended that any student or acquaintance use FMJ ammo the same way I do.
As far as I'm concerned, I have no specific ammunition recommendation to offer to anyone. Everyone is welcome to carry whatever ammo they feel comfortable with, and is legal for their intended use.
actually all hollow points for ANY caliber are designed to expand at the velocity that they are designed to travel otherwise they would have made them different. As to penetration i might agree with the 25 using fmj but 380 should get enough penetration with a jhp. just my opinion though.
I carry Hollow Points because that is what the Police and other Law Enforcement Officers carry and I know that they would not carry anything that was not safe.
Anyway I have some left over from my career.
Ghost who walks....I am not here to fight either. Please do not think I wanted to fight. I come here for just this type of discussion.
Now, I have always been taught that the full metal jacket round was a military design. Thast round nose lead ammo was the general "civilian use" ammo before hollow point ammo came into being. I will admit that I may be wrong. But, I learned this from instructors in the military and in my somewhat brief law enforcement career. (Both cut short due to the same knee injury)
I am aware that FMJ ammo will sometimes cause more damage to bone and that even hollow point ammo will sometimes over penetrate and cause through and through wounds. In fact, most HP ammo will not perform as advertised if it passes through denim first. That is why I have such high hopes for the Federal Expanding Full Metal Jacket ammo.
But, having said all that, I also feel pretty certian that full metal jacket ammo in 9mm (especially 9mm) and .40 will very often cause through and throughs.
My point is this: why take that extra chance? Why open yourself up to the possibility of a lawsuit? In fact, why not find out what ammo the police department where you live issues and then use the same ammo if it is acceptable? Then a lawyer has no basis for a lawsuit.
To me, FMJ ammo is just not the way to go in todays day and age unless you are shooting through a solid barrier. And how likely is that in a typical CCW situation?
PT, we can discuss this without really arguing.
(Besides you look a little like me; and we’ve, both, had an injured knee. Bummer, ain’t it!)
Quite frankly, this subject has been, pretty well, beaten-to-death on several other shooting and self-defense forums. I think Mas Ayoob, even, weighed in during one discussion.
It’s late; and my broadband cable service is only providing very limited bandwidth tonight; so, now isn’t the time to go hunting for this information; but, as a courtesy to you, I will get on it, sometime, tomorrow.
A number of us have previously agreed that FMJ pistol ammo is more useful and less dangerous than is popularly believed. FMJ advantages which stand out in my mind include: Greater weapon reliability, double wounds, easier penetration of heavy clothing, increased bone damage, and defeat of barricades.
The reality that there is no such thing as a, ‘safe bullet’, also, comes to the fore. People behind trees and walls are a concern to me; and, if I had to go up against a vested opponent while using a pistol, then, I’d much rather hit him with FMJ than HP.
(Can you tell I'm from New Jersey? We do everything with firearms backwards, there!)
I’ll agree that I wouldn’t want the person in the apartment next to mine to be packing hardball for home defense; but, I have to trust another gunman to use his head, and exercise the same proper regard for my personal wellbeing as I would for him.
(After all, the state does!)
I’m presently living in a home situation where I have, only, an open 180 degree field-of-fire; and I, still, may end up taking out some cows. As I said, once it is fired, 'There is no such thing as a, ‘safe bullet’; and, there is, also, no absolute guarantee that you aren’t going to hit more than the intended target.
To deal with this unpredictable phenomenon by oversimplifying it with a blanket statement like, ‘Hollow points are safer to use than full-metal jackets.’ is (to be perfectly frank) unrealistic.
To my mind the best answer is, ‘They may or may not be!’ As far as I’m concerned, you have to exercise the same care in shooting a pistol - in firing the shot – as you do when picking out a suitable weapon and the right cartridge and load to go along with it.
Both the weapon's anticipated purpose as well as the surrounding environment, and intended target must be analyzed. Sometimes, FMJ turns out to be the correct choice. Sometimes frangible is correct; and, sometimes, hollow point ammunition is best.
For me, in my present life circumstances and with my current carry pistol, FMJ is that correct choice. 35 years ago when I was living in an apartment it would not have been; but, then again, neither would hollow points. (Remember, there is no perfectly safe bullet!)
You see, for the past 30 years, I’ve held the opinion that people who live in apartments should be using the exact same ammunition that our current Air Marshals use – low velocity, frangibles.
(But, of course, that would imply a perfect world!)
Last edited by Ghost Who Walks; August 29th, 2006 at 11:36 AM.
A hp can't do the same thing?
Know your target and what is beyond. If you're shooting at a BG knowing there's innocent people behind him and just counting on a HP to not go all the way through I think you're being reckless. For that matter, I know exactly how ball ammo will perform everytime where with a HP I have no real idea (That's not saying the round won't do different things in a person's body, just saying it will do the same thing everytime (no worries about expansion or any of that).
HP might expand, it might not expand, etc. I know for a fact that ball ammo will get enough penetration. If I have to shoot through a car door, I know it will get through. I used to carry HP's and I've weighed the advantages/disadvantages a few times. I decided that ball ammo is for me. It might not be for you, but just blanket deciding that HP is better is wrong when ball ammo will outperform it in some scenarios.
Wild Bill fired ball ammo in .32 caliber that shot roughly 800 fps and he had no problems killing people.
What about cocktails?
FMJ and HP alternating or in some combination?
Personally I like the idea. I like to load the HP to fire first then a few FMJ for barriers/penetration needs should the HP fail to do the job.
I welcome any comments, suggestions or input on this.
In my book it gives the best of both worlds.
Here's a couple of commentaries on hollow point and hard ball ammunition I found on the internet. I wanted to find what Dr. Fackler had to say; but, Ayoob seems to contradict him, anyway.
There's no disputing that both types of bullet work well, and have their respective applications.
HOLLOW POINTS VS. FMJ AMMUNITION –
Comparison of Performance Among Different Bullet Configurations:
PS: I like the idea of, 'cocktails'. Don't think that POI is a factor with pistol ammunition at typical engagement distances: 3 + 3 + 3 (3 shots, inside 3 yards, in less than 3 seconds)
Just remember, 'If you prepare for a normal engagement, then, you may expect to fight at a disadvantage!'
Those are good articles. Thank you for posting the links.
But, I didn't read anything in them that would make me want to start carrying FMJ ammo. I still believe that for the civilian carrying a gun, HP ammo or the expanding FMJ ammo is the way to go.
I really want to get my hands on some EFMJ ammo. I have not been able to find it and I am affraid it might be discontinued because there isn't enough of a demand for it. It seems to be the perfect union of the HP and FMJ ammo types. As I have read it also does much better at going through solid barriers than HP ammo and will always expand no matter what type of clothing it passes through first.
Hmmm ... ? Will expanding full metal jacketed bullets stop a 1000 pound buffalo; or will it just make him, even, more determined to stomp you into a mud cake?