Two basic stopping power questions - Page 2

Two basic stopping power questions

This is a discussion on Two basic stopping power questions within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power This link takes you to one of the better stopping power articles I have ever read, and make ...

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Thread: Two basic stopping power questions

  1. #16
    Member Array garwha's Avatar
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    An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power This link takes you to one of the better stopping power articles I have ever read, and make it more than just a little clear that if you want to reliably stop someone shootings skills are the number 1 factor, and all carry hangun rounds have limitations. I expect to shoot about 50,000 times more target rounds than SD rounds over my lifetime, and hope to never shoot anyone in peacetime, but I will be prepared to defend myself, and my property. Pick the weapon you can conceal, control, and learn to shoot it very well, and use very good hollow point ammo. I have owned dozens of handguns, have four now, but spend more time practicing with my SD handgun, than with my more fun to shoot handguns. All shooting however tends to improve overall shooting skill, so have some fun too.


  2. #17
    Ex Member Array apvbguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcclarke View Post
    Many popular street drugs such as angel dust render their users effectively immune to pain.
    they won't feel a thing bleeding out and they won't be able to move too well either

  3. #18
    New Member Array Carl777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    The FBI standards are 14 inches of penetration for a round to be considered for service use. The cavity of a man’s chest is from front to back is 12 inches so if you hit them in the side the shot it would have to penetrate 14 inches to do enough internal damage to stop the threat.

    So now when someone is shooting at you their arms are in front of them so you want a bullet that has enough power to penetrate the forearm and still have enough energy to cause internal damage in the chest cavity.

    The chest/stomach area is the biggest target to hit and does the least amount of moving.. This is why on a silhouette target it gets the highest scores

    For these reasons I don’t carry anything less than a 9mm (340 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle)

    edit: use hollow points; when they hit soft/ hard surfaces they expand and delivery all the energy to the target and have less chance of exiting the body
    At the thickest point of my chest, just eyeballing it it looks around six or seven inches. I'm about average size.

  4. #19
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl777 View Post
    I'd frankly be more concerned with the bullet going through him and hitting someone behind him though, then worrying about that. Besides, if he's lunging at me with a knife already, I don't know if shot placement much matter anymore, it's kind of too late to stop him through anything other than pain. Right?
    The skin on his back stretches and has the same resistance as four inches of muscle. That helps limit excessive penetration.

    A hit to the central nervous system will drop him instantly (stop the attack) so shoot as fast as you can until you hit his central nervous system. Sufficient penetration is essential, as is low recoil to help you get back on target for follow-up shots. Meanwhile, you should "get off the X".

    A miss is the same as over-penetration, None of us can promise that we will never miss, so consider your line of fire and assume your attacker will duck, weave, bob, or shift out of thr way causing you to miss some of your shots.

    Consider the Law of Relative Harms.

    Excellent queries, keep them coming.

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl777 View Post
    At the thickest point of my chest, just eyeballing it it looks around six or seven inches. I'm about average size.
    I am eleven inches thick from sternum to the back of my spine.

  6. #21
    Member Array Moops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl777 View Post
    So basically, the differences between the different calibers and loads are somewhat meaningless unless your opponent requires several minutes to hurt you? lol
    As far as I'm concerned, yes. Seems to me that skill and luck are much larger factors in SD. As so many have said before, everyone talks about how underpowered a .22 is, but none that I know of have ever volunteered to be shot by one.

    Quote Originally Posted by garwha View Post
    Pick the weapon you can conceal, control, and learn to shoot it very well...
    This is what the entire CC balistics argument boils down to for me. I have a full-size 1911, and a Glock 26. I went out and bought an LCP because I couldn't comfortably carry either of the others. A .380 round is certainly better than no round at all.
    "Your mind is the weapon, all the rest are just tools." --gasmitty

  7. #22
    New Member Array Carl777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcclarke View Post
    The skin on his back stretches and has the same resistance as four inches of muscle. That helps limit excessive penetration.

    A hit to the central nervous system will drop him instantly (stop the attack) so shoot as fast as you can until you hit his central nervous system. Sufficient penetration is essential, as is low recoil to help you get back on target for follow-up shots. Meanwhile, you should "get off the X".
    I see. What do you mean by get off the X though?

  8. #23
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl777 View Post
    So basically, the differences between the different calibers and loads are somewhat meaningless unless your opponent requires several minutes to hurt you? lol
    Unless or until you hit his central nervous system, yes. Bigger bullets destroy more tissue and cause proportionately faster bleeding than smaller diameter . But yes all handgun bullets are ballistically inadequate.

  9. #24
    New Member Array Carl777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moops View Post
    As far as I'm concerned, yes. Seems to me that skill and luck are much larger factors in SD. As so many have said before, everyone talks about how underpowered a .22 is, but none that I know of have ever volunteered to be shot by one.
    Alright, thanks. Makes sense to me.

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array 357and40's Avatar
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    The shot placement argument makes me laugh. Find someone that remains super calm in a life and death situation & then we can talk about how amazing shot placement is.

    Under combat stress a master marksman will be a good marksman, a good one will become mediocre, mediocre becomes poor, etc...

    Saying that you would rather be hit in the toe with a 45 than a 22 in the eye... well duh... I would rather not be hit at all than have someone pop me with a pellet gun... Use the weapon with which you perform best.

    I very strongly urge a service caliber (38+p or greater and 9mm+p or greater.) Granted, I daily conceal a S&W M&P40c and a S&W 360 357mag. I do this in business casual. I am 5' 10" and weight 210. IT is possible to conceal a service caliber. J-Frame revolvers can easily be pocket, belly band or ankle carried. So can several 9mm weapons and 40s. IT is not difficult to get a weapon of service caliber that is readily concealable on any body type. IF you are committed to your safety then you absolutely have the ability to dress around your weapon.

    The FBI did a LOT of testing. They believe in a certain caliber or greater and I will take their advice to heart.

    If you can not hit the target then it does not matter what caliber you have, true. Granted, I train to hit the target & even though under stress my abilities will definitely take a hit, I would rather have a 40 or a 357 land than a 380 any day. I want every advantage I can get. I do not want to have to wait for a threat to bleed out while they are still attacking me if at all possible. I want to stop the threat as quickly as possible.
    marcclarke and sgb like this.
    "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain."
    - Roy Batty

  11. #26
    New Member Array Carl777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcclarke View Post
    Unless or until you hit his central nervous system, yes. Bigger bullets destroy more tissue and cause proportionately faster bleeding than smaller diameter . But yes all handgun bullets are ballistically inadequate.
    What makes rifles so much better? They all good penetration, but you can still achieve that with a handgun, and they usually make a smaller hole. Is it because they fragment on contact or something?

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl777 View Post
    I see. What do you mean by get off the X though?
    Run away in any direction. A running target is much more difficult for the bad guy to hit than a static target. The X refers to the Coyote in the road runner cartoons. Search the forum for threads about movement.

  13. #28
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl777 View Post
    What makes rifles so much better? They all good penetration, but you can still achieve that with a handgun, and they usually make a smaller hole. Is it because they fragment on contact or something?
    Yes. A rifle bullet creates a large temporary stretch cavity, big enough to tear tissue indirectly, but a handgun bullet does not.

    Rife bullets do tend to fragment which greatly increases the damage they inflict. Search for Fackler and Docgkr.
    Last edited by marcclarke; April 29th, 2012 at 04:19 PM. Reason: fix typos

  14. #29
    New Member Array Carl777's Avatar
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    I see, thanks for the info.

  15. #30
    New Member Array Carl777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcclarke View Post
    But yes all handgun bullets are ballistically inadequate.
    Wouldn't it also be the case for rifles though? Would any of them guarantee an instant stop at COM as opposed to a handgun round? Excluding a .50 and stuff like that of course.

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