Two basic stopping power questions - Page 3

Two basic stopping power questions

This is a discussion on Two basic stopping power questions within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Moops As far as I'm concerned, yes. Seems to me that skill and luck are much larger factors in SD. As so ...

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  1. #31
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moops View Post
    As far as I'm concerned, yes. Seems to me that skill and luck are much larger factors in SD. As so many have said before, everyone talks about how underpowered a .22 is, but none that I know of have ever volunteered to be shot by one.
    Which does not make a .22 a good choice for self defense.



    Quote Originally Posted by Moops View Post
    This is what the entire CC balistics argument boils down to for me. I have a full-size 1911, and a Glock 26. I went out and bought an LCP because I couldn't comfortably carry either of the others. A .380 round is certainly better than no round at all.
    The 380 round does not have sufficient penetration to be an adequate self defense round. May I suggest better holsters for your adequate handguns?


  2. #32
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl777 View Post
    Wouldn't it also be the case for rifles though? Would any of them guarantee an instant stop at COM as opposed to a handgun round? Excluding a .50 and stuff like that of course.
    That depends on the rifle bullet. A torso hit from an expanding rifle bullet is a nearly certain stop. A torso hit from a 7.62 NATO FMJ bullet is nearly certain stop. See Fackler's articles about the wounding potential of military bullets.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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    sgb likes this.

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    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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    sgb likes this.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 357and40 View Post
    The shot placement argument makes me laugh. Find someone that remains super calm in a life and death situation & then we can talk about how amazing shot placement is.

    Under combat stress a master marksman will be a good marksman, a good one will become mediocre, mediocre becomes poor, etc...
    I agree. Force on force training using Air Soft pistols with both the attacker and the defender running as fast as they can demolishes the good placement argument, in my experience. To get good placement everyone has to be standing still, especially the attacker.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 357and40 View Post
    I very strongly urge a service caliber (38+p or greater and 9mm+p or greater.)
    I very strongly concur.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl777 View Post
    The FBI 's bullets wouldn't penetrate through some kind of barrier (a car door, right?) to hit the bad guys, correct? But that kind of shootout is pretty rare, isn't it? A self defense shooting is usually going to happen with the bad guy a couple yard at most from the shooter without any barriers.
    We civilians have to worry about carjacking, road rage, and drive by shootings.

  8. #38
    Member Array Moops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcclarke View Post
    Which does not make a .22 a good choice for self defense.




    The 380 round does not have sufficient penetration to be an adequate self defense round. May I suggest better holsters for your adequate handguns?
    I didn't say that makes the .22 a good choice for SD. There is no "good" choice in handguns (or any guns, for that matter) for self defense. All choices are tradeoffs. To get concealment, one must sacrifice size, which, ultimately sacrifices power. My problem with my "adequate" handguns isn't poor holsters, it is size and weight of the pistols themselves. I simply cannot comfortably carry those pistols without changing the type of clothing I wear. In Florida in the summertime, I refuse to wear clothes that would allow me to conceal an "adequate" handgun. This is a choice I have consciously made. I know the .380 isn't the best handgun round for SD, but I balance the likelihood that I'll have to use it (low) against the change in lifestyle (significant) that would be necessitated by a more powerful alternative. It is nothing more than a risk assesment.

    And lots of research contradicts your claim that the .380 is an inadequate SD round.
    "Your mind is the weapon, all the rest are just tools." --gasmitty

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcclarke View Post
    To get good placement everyone has to be standing still, especially the attacker.
    Especially the defender. Time and distance determine how you shoot. Exploding off the "X" during the draw, can you get to cover? Can you shoot on the move? Should you then move, "set" , shoot, and move? A moving target is easier to hit than shooting on the move. It can be done with more practice.

    I think the FBI could have used a heavier 9mm bullet, and penetration wouldn't have been a problem. That would leave bad shot placement, and you know they would sweep that under the rug. The key to penetration is using a heavy for caliber bullet in a 9mm+P or 38 +P on up. The more experience you gain, the smaller the caliber needs to be. Practice with both hands until you can control rapid fire from behind cover and while moving. Penetration and shot placement will take care of themselves after you dominate the weapon with a confident mindset.
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

  10. #40
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl777 View Post
    I don't know much about stopping power or ballistics, so I had a few basic questions. First of all, why do people talk about penetration so much? Thirteen inches of penetration is talked about like a minimum for handguns, but I don't know many people that thick.

    Also, when you have to stop someone who is also armed with a gun, what is the purpose of the debate over stopping power? In order to stop someone from hurting you who has a gun, you'd need to do it almost instantly since it doesn't take long to pull a trigger. The only way to do that is through pain or by hitting the central nervous system. All the other methods of stopping discussed deal with blood loss, or hitting a vital organ (other than the spine or brain), and none of those methods produce an instant stop. I'm assuming all handgun rounds are going to produce basically the same level of intense pain, so isn't stopping power sort of irrelevant for that type of situation?
    Pain is not what stops attackers. Many people have been shot and kept right on doing what they were doing before they were shot.

    Yes, there is such a thing as a psychological stop, where the attacker decided to stop attacking even though not physiologically disabled.

  11. #41
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moops View Post

    And lots of research contradicts your claim that the .380 is an inadequate SD round.
    No .380 round that I am aware of passes the FBI's standards. What .380 round do you know of that passes the IWBA's and FBI's standards? Citations, please.

  12. #42
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunthorp View Post
    The key to penetration is using a heavy for caliber bullet in a 9mm+P or 38 +P on up.
    I very strongly agree. I suggest (to the OP) reading Duncan MacPherson's book.
    Bullet Penetration Home Page

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcclarke View Post
    Pain is not what stops attackers. Many people have been shot and kept right on doing what they were doing before they were shot.

    Yes, there is such a thing as a psychological stop, where the attacker decided to stop attacking even though not physiologically disabled.
    I'd like to see a study on physical vs. psychological stops in the different types of shootings. Most criminals are looking for a soft target. That's why locking your doors while driving prevents a majority of carjackings, for example. I would hypothesize that the majority of psychological stops come from BGs finding out a "soft" target is actually quite "hard." I suspect that, much as in the FBI shooting in Miami and the infamous school shootings, when the BGs expect that fighting their way out is their only hope of survival (or they've given up on survival altogether), they are more likely to "fight through the pain." Whereas, in a robbery, home invasion, carjacking, etc, once the BG finds out that their victim is armed, they feel a quick exit is their most likely way to avoid death or prison.
    "Your mind is the weapon, all the rest are just tools." --gasmitty

  14. #44
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moops View Post
    As far as I'm concerned, yes. Seems to me that skill and luck are much larger factors in SD.
    I very respectfully disagree. Training and practice are the largest factors in self defense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcclarke View Post
    That depends on the rifle bullet. A torso hit from an expanding rifle bullet is a nearly certain stop. A torso hit from a 7.62 NATO FMJ bullet is nearly certain stop. See Fackler's articles about the wounding potential of military bullets.
    Why is it nearly a certain stop? By stop do you mean an immediate stop, or an eventual stop? Again, if you don't hit the central nervous system there is nothing in the chest that would physiologically disable someone, so excluding pain, how would that produce an instant stop any more surely than a handgun bullet?
    Quote Originally Posted by marcclarke View Post
    Pain is not what stops attackers. Many people have been shot and kept right on doing what they were doing before they were shot.

    Yes, there is such a thing as a psychological stop, where the attacker decided to stop attacking even though not physiologically disabled.
    Isn't this post a contradiction?

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