Two basic stopping power questions - Page 4

Two basic stopping power questions

This is a discussion on Two basic stopping power questions within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Is a .380 inadequate because it lacks the necessary ballistics or because their are better choices? Many calibers we now consider inadequate were considered more ...

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  1. #46
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Is a .380 inadequate because it lacks the necessary ballistics or because their are better choices?
    Many calibers we now consider inadequate were considered more than capable when they came out. The 38 special was considered more than enough up until something better came out on the market. My favorite caliber of all, the 44 special, was found to be totally lacking shortly after the invention of the 44 magnum. Growing up here in western Oklahoma I remember when a 30-30 was more than enough gun for deer. An 06 was considered by folks here as overkill. Now the 06 doesn't have the needed velocity.
    At that same time the ultimate long range rifle for elk was a .270. Strange how now you see artivcles saying that the .270 does not have the knockdown power necessary for elk. How is it that this same rifle with the much improved bullets we have today can no longer kill an elk? I have read that a 7 mag is now the minimum.

    Why do some believe that when something new comes out it makes whatever it replaces inadequate? When a new round comes out the old rounds do not lose any of their power. Yes, the newer rounds are better, but that does not make the older round less than what they originally were.
    If my 38 special was a good back then it is still good today. The fact that the 357 is better does not lessen the ability of the 38.

    Are these old standbys really no longer capable or do we just no longer posses the skill needed to use them? Do we need a more powerful weapon to overcome out inability to shoot straight?

    Michael
    JEAM, Kilowatt3 and tclance like this.


  2. #47
    Senior Member Array CanuckQue's Avatar
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    BGs have gotten a lot bigger! The average thug probably packs an extra 20lbs of fat more than they used to.
    mlr1m likes this.
    There WILL be patents with this (simple) discovery. That, and "type III levers". It's untapped wealth, waiting for you who Google. Or your kids. People expanding on the potential are welcome to elucidate; I didn't phrase it well

  3. #48
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl777 View Post
    Why is it nearly a certain stop?
    Massive trauma to heart, lungs, aorta, over-pressure hydraulic force to brain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl777 View Post
    By stop do you mean an immediate stop, or an eventual stop?
    Immediate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl777 View Post
    Again, if you don't hit the central nervous system there is nothing in the chest that would physiologically disable someone,
    Disruption of blood supply to brain. Shock to the nervous system. Knock the wind out of the attacker by shocking the diaphram.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl777 View Post
    so excluding pain, how would that produce an instant stop any more surely than a handgun bullet?
    Big temporary stretch cavity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl777 View Post
    Isn't this post a contradiction?
    No. Pain is different from shock.

  4. #49
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanuckQue View Post
    BGs have gotten a lot bigger! The average thug probably packs an extra 20lbs of fat more than they used to.
    And they pack on a lot of muscle pumping iron while in prison.

  5. #50
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Is a .380 inadequate because it lacks the necessary ballistics or because their are better choices?
    The former.

  6. #51
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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  7. #52
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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  8. #53
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl777 View Post
    At the thickest point of my chest, just eyeballing it it looks around six or seven inches. I'm about average size.
    I am a big man so my chest is at least 12" and if you go lower it expands to 35" or so

  9. #54
    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
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    Forget head shots you aint going to hit it.
    Center mass and shot till threat stops. The only way to look at it the only thing that works.
    To often the conversation gets caught up in first round kills. It seldom happens with any hand gun right away.
    The goal is nothing more than to STOP the threat, by killing it or by cause so much damage it is no long a threat. Your be chance is the second. The threat may or may not die latter but they will be stopped.
    SD gun fights are not what you see on TV. One more time center mass stop the threat. Center mass is the middle of what ever you see in front of you. Take the largest target.
    BG goes down move away quickly.
    You can worry about how many inches penetration latter,

  10. #55
    New Member Array Carl777's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcclarke View Post
    Massive trauma to heart, lungs, aorta, over-pressure hydraulic force to brain.
    How does damage to the circulatory system immediately prevent someone from lifting their gun and pulling the trigger? Over the length of a few seconds or minutes they will weaken and drop, but immediately I don't see how it would physiologically stop someone. As for the brain, I've read about that, but the existence of that effect seems to be pretty contested. Are you sure on that?


    Quote Originally Posted by marcclarke View Post
    Disruption of blood supply to brain. Shock to the nervous system. Knock the wind out of the attacker by shocking the diaphram.
    Disruption of blood supply wouldn't produce an immediate effect, unless I'm mistaken. By shock to the nervous system do you mean the stun effect of a temporary stretch cavity? The diaphragm sounds like your best argument if a bullet can cause that effect. But on second thought, would that physically hinder someone more than just getting a piece of metal drilled into them? I've had the wind knocked out of me several times before, but I don't think I was physically disabled, just psychologically.

    Tell me if anything I just said is wrong.

    P.s. I'll read those links in a bit, thanks for posting them.

  11. #56
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl777 View Post
    How does damage to the circulatory system immediately prevent someone from lifting their gun and pulling the trigger?
    Indirectly, by causing immediate loss of consciousness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl777 View Post
    Over the length of a few seconds or minutes they will weaken and drop, but immediately I don't see how it would physiologically stop someone. As for the brain, I've read about that effect, but the existence of that effect seems to be pretty contested. Are you sure on that?
    No, not 100%. I encourage you to read the IWBA's journals, Dr. Martin Fackler's many articles, and Dr. Gary K. Roberts' (DocGKR) many posts and articles. Google is your friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl777 View Post
    Disruption of blood supply wouldn't produce an immediate effect, unless I'm mistaken.
    Not by itself. You are correct. This is the root of the problem with handguns; they can cause enough damage to the heart and aorta to stop blood supply to the brain but the brain continues to function for about 15 seconds even after the blood supply has been stopped. Handgun bullets don't carry enough energy to cause a big enough temporary stretch cavity to tear surrounding tissue; handgun bullets only damage what they touch directly. Rifle bullets create big stretch cavities that are large enough (bigger than four inches) to actually tear the stretched tissues, causing massive peripheral trauma and inducing shock.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl777 View Post
    By shock to the nervous system do you mean the stun effect of a temporary stretch cavity?
    Yes. Trauma to lots of nerves puts the brain into shock. There does not have to be a direct hit to the CNS. The problem with indirect shock is that after a while the attacker gets back up and continues the attack. Sooner or later the attacker recovers from the trauma-induced shock if the CNS is not directly hit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carl777 View Post
    The diaphragm sounds like your best argument if a bullet can cause that effect.
    Yes. See the links I posted just a few posts earlier in this thread for discussion of shock to the diaphragm by a bullet.

    Superb questions, BTW.
    BritishAgent likes this.

  12. #57
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty901 View Post
    Forget head shots you ain't going to hit it.
    This matches my experience with force-on-force training using AirSoft pistols with both shooters running, ducking, bobbing, and weaving.

  13. #58
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    drop his blood pressure and you drop him

    but the body will cut blood flow to the extremities to save the core so the 8 seconds
    commenly refered to caused by massive blood loss may take a bit longer.

    make holes with semi-wad cutters as they bore a hole ( thus letting blood out faster)
    than a round nose which pushes material out of the way as it passes through.
    bullets designed to expand, if they in fact do, may be more effective than the SWC'er

    and the new short bbl designer ammo has proven to be an improvement.
    not great but better in j-frames and short bbl 32's and 380's and 38's
    over 3" and the extra cost is muchly wasted.
    Arthritis sucks big-big
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  14. #59
    Member Array Moops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcclarke View Post
    I very respectfully disagree. Training and practice are the largest factors in self defense.
    Training + Practice = Skill
    "Your mind is the weapon, all the rest are just tools." --gasmitty

  15. #60
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Is a .380 inadequate because it lacks the necessary ballistics or because their are better choices?
    Many calibers we now consider inadequate were considered more than capable when they came out. The 38 special was considered more than enough up until something better came out on the market. My favorite caliber of all, the 44 special, was found to be totally lacking shortly after the invention of the 44 magnum. Growing up here in western Oklahoma I remember when a 30-30 was more than enough gun for deer. An 06 was considered by folks here as overkill. Now the 06 doesn't have the needed velocity.
    At that same time the ultimate long range rifle for elk was a .270. Strange how now you see artivcles saying that the .270 does not have the knockdown power necessary for elk. How is it that this same rifle with the much improved bullets we have today can no longer kill an elk? I have read that a 7 mag is now the minimum.

    Why do some believe that when something new comes out it makes whatever it replaces inadequate? When a new round comes out the old rounds do not lose any of their power. Yes, the newer rounds are better, but that does not make the older round less than what they originally were.
    If my 38 special was a good back then it is still good today. The fact that the 357 is better does not lessen the ability of the 38.

    Are these old standbys really no longer capable or do we just no longer posses the skill needed to use them? Do we need a more powerful weapon to overcome out inability to shoot straight?

    Michael
    Good post Michael. It would appear to me that most folks want gear and bullets to do the job. Rather than working hard and training to master the weapon they have chosen...
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

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