Two basic stopping power questions

This is a discussion on Two basic stopping power questions within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by marcclarke No .380 round that I am aware of passes the FBI's standards. What .380 round do you know of that passes ...

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 90
Like Tree39Likes

Thread: Two basic stopping power questions

  1. #61
    Member Array Moops's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    200
    Quote Originally Posted by marcclarke View Post
    No .380 round that I am aware of passes the FBI's standards. What .380 round do you know of that passes the IWBA's and FBI's standards? Citations, please.
    I'm not in the FBI, and I don't face the same threats they do. Apparently, your idea of "adequate" differs from mine.

    Let me ask you this, between a .380 and nothing, which makes the better SD round? If you decided to rob someone, and they pulled an LCP, would you laugh it off and say, "Your choice of Self-Defense weapon is inadequate!" and continue your original course of action?

    I don't care to walk around with an arsenal on my person. I'm just not that paranoid. If you do, good on you! That works for you.
    "Your mind is the weapon, all the rest are just tools." --gasmitty

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #62
    Senior Member
    Array marcclarke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Loveland, Colorado USA
    Posts
    741
    Quote Originally Posted by Moops View Post
    I'm not in the FBI, and I don't face the same threats they do. Apparently, your idea of "adequate" differs from mine.

    Let me ask you this, between a .380 and nothing, which makes the better SD round? If you decided to rob someone, and they pulled an LCP, would you laugh it off and say, "Your choice of Self-Defense weapon is inadequate!" and continue your original course of action?

    I don't care to walk around with an arsenal on my person. I'm just not that paranoid. If you do, good on you! That works for you.
    So you don't know of a .380 round that passes the FBI's specifications, correct?

  4. #63
    Moderator
    Array bmcgilvray's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    9,891
    Just a hypothetical question but, what if we just didn't pay attention to the FBI and their specifications? Would it influence forum discussions? Would it really influence our choices? Should it influence our choices?
    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

  5. #64
    Senior Member
    Array marcclarke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Loveland, Colorado USA
    Posts
    741
    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    Just a hypothetical question but, what if we just didn't pay attention to the FBI and their specifications? Would it influence forum discussions? Would it really influence our choices?
    Indeed, why should we pay attention to competent and authoritative sources at the FBI? Just because they set the standards and test procedures that all the major self-defense ammunition suppliers must meet in order to be able to sell to the FBI or to police forces? Just because the FBI's standards have caused the ammunition manufactures to create bullets that actually expand reliably and predictably (versus the bad old days when JHP bullets frequently did not expand, and many people relied on semi-wadcutters instead of JHP bullets because they knew what the semi-wadcutters would do whereas they did not know what the JHP bullets would or would not do)? Just because the FBI's standards have caused most bullet designers to come up with expanding bullets that don't clog when traversing denim or leather? Just because the FBI is the primary authority in the self-defense ammunition industry? Just because police departments generally don't have the funding to conduct their own terminal ballistics research and thus rely on the FBI's standards and ratings when selecting ammunition for their officers to carry?

    Just because their standards and measurement procedures are published so anyone can test ammunition using their standards against any other ammunition instead of relying on anecdotes, cherry-picked statistics, and personal opinions? (DocGKR on several Internet forums and Dave DiFabio (at the now-sadly-defunct Ammolab) come immediately to mind as people who have performed extensive comparitive testing on all manner of ammunition using the FBI's protocols.)

    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    Should it influence our choices?
    Yes, as the FBI has the best standards we know of so far, and all the high-grade self-defense ammunition available in the US is designed to meet the FBI's ammunition performance standards.
    Sebass and Hoganbeg like this.

  6. #65
    Senior Member
    Array marcclarke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Loveland, Colorado USA
    Posts
    741
    Quote Originally Posted by Moops View Post
    If you decided to rob someone, and they pulled an LCP, would you laugh it off and say, "Your choice of Self-Defense weapon is inadequate!" and continue your original course of action?
    I'm not going to rob anyone.

  7. #66
    VIP Member
    Array tacman605's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Arkansas/On the X in Afghanistan
    Posts
    3,031
    Well with all the links and books mentioned amazon and google will be busy tonight.

    In regards to the OP. Think of a handgun/firearm as the ultimate pain compliance device but always remember what hurts you may not hurt me in the same way. You have two options in regards to this. First cause the other person so much pain that he no longer wants to play with you anymore find his pain thrshhold and surpass it. Secondly mechanically break him where he can't play anymore. Envision a car motor. If you drain the oil out the car will keep going until the engine overheats and seizes up but cut the driveshaft it will not go anywhere.
    Now you have to be careful with this theory in that when you mechanically break them, shots to the pelvic girdle, femur and so on they still may be able to shoot but they are severely limited on mobility.

    You cannot rely on any, generally speaking, handgun round to drop someone out of the fight unless you hit a component of the CNS/brain or spinal cord. Blood loss will not cause an immediate cease in hostile activities even if the heart/aorta are completely destroyed. The human body can take a great deal of punishment and in many cases the brain will keep the body going on the remaining blood supply/oxygen it has stored.
    Ask any hunter who has just heart shot a deer and spends the next 30 minutes tracking him. The heart is destroyed, no blood flowing yet the animal travelled a great distance before collapsing the human body is the same way.
    In cases where severe pain is inflicted your body has a tremendous dump of natural chemicals to compensate for the blood loss. The brain although it composes about 2% of the total body weight takes up to 25% of the blood supply. Since the brain is in charge it can and will shut down blood supplies to internal organs and extremities to save itself and keep the body going.
    This is for a person who is reacting naturally to a pain response and does not include those who are chemically or mentally altered. This category of aggressors can withstand tremendous amounts of abuse and keep on coming.

    In regards to caliber there is no magic bullet that will end a gunfight quick enough unless you hit what has already been mentioned. To many folks today put to much faith in media hype, internet legend and statistics. It was not long ago that a study/survey was posted on here stating that all you need most of the time was a low round count .22 backed up by a shotgun to survive a home invasion and folks ran with it. Does that mean that we should all carry a simple .22 because of what the stats said? Not quite.
    I carry a .380 on occasion and do not feel undergunned in the least. I have trained enough and know my skill level and more importantly the limitations of the weapon and ammunition I am carrying to be comfortable with it. Do I normally carry something bigger? Of course, but whatever I have on my person at that time, in that moment of need is what I will use whether it is a .22 or a big bore magnum.

    The shot placement argument makes me laugh. Find someone that remains super calm in a life and death situation & then we can talk about how amazing shot placement is.

    This statement really intrigues me. I can start by naming Jeff Cooper, Jim Cirillo and and others who have been in a host of lethal force encounters and came out on top because they put the bullet where it needed to go. Bullets by the way that many consider obsolete by today's super duper SD standards. Namely the 158 gr RNL .38 special and the 230 gr .45 cal ball.
    Training, skill and mindset are what will get you through the event. You will have a multitude of emotions, physical and phycological events that will occur in the moment of need, it is how you have trained to react to these events that will keep you alive.

    In closing, to the OP, carry what you feel comfortable with. Practice and train with it. There will always be some new super duper magnum blaster that will be the latest craze. Will it be better than what you have? Who knows. If you are involved in a lethal force encounter shoot them to the ground reload and be prepared to shoot some more he may not have gotten the memo or read the latest stats to know he is supposed to go down from 2.7 hits from your new self defense load.

    It has and always will be the guy pulling the trigger not the equipment he is using that will prevail.

    Just an opinion.
    JD, Hoganbeg, Kilowatt3 and 1 others like this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  8. #67
    Member Array Moops's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    200
    Quote Originally Posted by marcclarke View Post
    I'm not going to rob anyone.
    Then my entire philosophy falls apart. I'm on my way to my LGS for that Desert Eagle and an IWB to conceal it in.
    "Your mind is the weapon, all the rest are just tools." --gasmitty

  9. #68
    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    3,225
    Quote Originally Posted by marcclarke View Post
    This matches my experience with force-on-force training using AirSoft pistols with both shooters running, ducking, bobbing, and weaving.
    I learned it in the real world. You point at the biggest target you can see. And do your best not to give them a target.

  10. #69
    VIP Member
    Array gunthorp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    home office
    Posts
    2,355
    The 500S&W is much more effective OWB for penetration. I get penetrating stares from everybody around.

    No disrespect to any caliber, but practice with and carry it always. It's not what it can do, as much as what you can do.

    "It's 90% half mental." - Yogi
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

  11. #70
    Senior Member
    Array marcclarke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Loveland, Colorado USA
    Posts
    741
    Quote Originally Posted by Moops View Post
    Then my entire philosophy falls apart. I'm on my way to my LGS for that Desert Eagle and an IWB to conceal it in.
    Nevertheless, I'm still not going to rob anyone.

  12. #71
    Senior Member Array CanuckQue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Maritimes Canada
    Posts
    1,106
    Are there a rash of cases of people failing to properly self-defend because their .380 were inadequate?
    Our current plan for Universal Iron Lung coverage, just sayin'.
    Wisest. Retirement. Plan. Ever.
    Good thing the March of Dimes worked. How, why?

    Alternately, for those with a tool shed, ideas, or creative loved ones to tell..


  13. #72
    VIP Member
    Array oneshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    +42.893612,-082.710236 , Mi.
    Posts
    7,869
    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Good post Michael. It would appear to me that most folks want gear and bullets to do the job. Rather than working hard and training to master the weapon they have chosen...


    ^^^^YES and No^^^^^^^^^^^

    What you both should realize is that, yes, many years ago people would take game animals, even dangerous game with smaller caliber weapons.
    When a different round comes along, it isn't so much people forget the older round, and look at it as ineffective, its that the larger, quite possibly more potent new round will make up for, a longer shot perhaps, or the game animal moving at the last moment, thereby creating a tougher job for the bullet to bring the animal down in a capable manner.
    I have made great shots on deer with a 30-30, and some have gone quite a bit farther than I had anticipated. Not out of site mind you, but still went farther than I thought they would.
    I have shot coyotes, with 30-30 HP, and SP and either went 20-30 yds. but had such trauma they were goners.
    The one that was shot with the HP had a hole going out that you could at least put your fist through, if not more.

    I doubt you would get that from the most potent of rounds out of a handgun cartridge , but I'm sure Glockman10mm will correct me if I'm wrong.


    You also must consider the fact that if .22lr, .25, or even .32 or .380 were effectual at bringing the BG down, then don't you think LEO's around the globe would use them?
    The larger calibers, will aid in punching through layers of clothing, help make up for a difficult shot angle, the BG also on the move, as well as you, shooting under stress, not to mention as has been brought up before, a formidable attacker or 3.
    Yes, even if you've went through the motions 1000 times at some training seminar.
    bmcgilvray likes this.
    If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.

    Washington didn't use his freedom of speech to defeat the British, He shot them!

    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy." -- Ernest Benn

  14. #73
    Member Array JEAM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    ND
    Posts
    118
    Quote Originally Posted by Carl777 View Post
    What makes rifles so much better? They all good penetration, but you can still achieve that with a handgun, and they usually make a smaller hole. Is it because they fragment on contact or something?
    One is the extra velocity and energy, compare 300-400 ft/lbs of energy with a pistol to the 1500-2000+ ft/lbs of a rifle. Then take into account that typical rifle rounds that would be used for defense or by the police either violently expand or fragment leaving a rather large permanent wound path, something no practical pistol round can claim. If the rifle round don't expand or fragment it will tumble. The higher velocity also adds something called hydrostatic shock which is something that no pistol round can claim either (no matter what some bullet manufacturer want you to believe.)

    I've personally seen 8"+ sized holes on deer from rifle rounds, never seen that with a pistol round.

    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    If my 38 special was a good back then it is still good today. The fact that the 357 is better does not lessen the ability of the 38.l
    In some cases the .38 special is actually a better choice than the longer .357 magnum. Such cases would be in a snub nose, as the .357 doesn't really attain the extra performance that it does in a longer barrel and has added muzzle flash and recoil that is unneeded.

    Quote Originally Posted by marcclarke View Post
    (versus the bad old days when JHP bullets frequently did not expand, and many people relied on semi-wadcutters instead of JHP bullets because they knew what the semi-wadcutters would do whereas they did not know what the JHP bullets would or would not do)?
    A properly cast SWC will still outperform hollow points, the problem is that most people either cast them too hard or too soft for their firearm. A SWC should also be able to expand there is a reason the SWC is still the best bullet choice for handgun hunting and not a hollow point. Lead casting has also come a long way just as the jacketed hollow points have. Not saying a good hollow point isn't a good choice as I use them in my autos and some of my snub nose loads. I will honestly say I don't feel under gunned with a J-frame loaded with standard pressure .38 special 158 gr. swc or 125 gr. golden sabers also standard pressure.


    I see a lot of people in this thread and many others here and around the internet that like to hop on the newest band wagon.

    carry what is comfortable to you and that you shoot best, Take care

  15. #74
    VIP Member Array multistage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    NW Iowa
    Posts
    2,345
    380s suck. Worthless. About as effective as a rock. Maybe. Maybe not. Unreal to think folks carry them.

    Like me. Everyday. Love my 238.

    You guys are funny.

  16. #75
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    2,855
    I think I can sum it up with this......

    1202_pic_3.jpg
    multistage and 357and40 like this.

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

best bullet for stopping power forum

,

forget stopping power

,

most lethal 22lr ammo

,

powered by mybb back pain nerve

,

powered by mybb body works

,

powered by mybb defence

,
powered by mybb how a game boy works
,

powered by mybb job loss

,

powered by mybb job loss arguments

,
powered by mybb massive attack
,

powered by mybb middle back pain

,

powered by mybb small ball

,

powered by mybb stop animal abuse because

,
powered by mybb upper left back pain
,
powered by mybb what is animal abuse
Click on a term to search for related topics.