This is a discussion on Two basic stopping power questions within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by marcclarke No .380 round that I am aware of passes the FBI's standards. What .380 round do you know of that passes ...
Let me ask you this, between a .380 and nothing, which makes the better SD round? If you decided to rob someone, and they pulled an LCP, would you laugh it off and say, "Your choice of Self-Defense weapon is inadequate!" and continue your original course of action?
I don't care to walk around with an arsenal on my person. I'm just not that paranoid. If you do, good on you! That works for you.
"Your mind is the weapon, all the rest are just tools." --gasmitty
Just a hypothetical question but, what if we just didn't pay attention to the FBI and their specifications? Would it influence forum discussions? Would it really influence our choices? Should it influence our choices?
Charter Member of the DC .41 LC Society "Get heeled! No really"
“No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”
Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893
Just because their standards and measurement procedures are published so anyone can test ammunition using their standards against any other ammunition instead of relying on anecdotes, cherry-picked statistics, and personal opinions? (DocGKR on several Internet forums and Dave DiFabio (at the now-sadly-defunct Ammolab) come immediately to mind as people who have performed extensive comparitive testing on all manner of ammunition using the FBI's protocols.)
Well with all the links and books mentioned amazon and google will be busy tonight.
In regards to the OP. Think of a handgun/firearm as the ultimate pain compliance device but always remember what hurts you may not hurt me in the same way. You have two options in regards to this. First cause the other person so much pain that he no longer wants to play with you anymore find his pain thrshhold and surpass it. Secondly mechanically break him where he can't play anymore. Envision a car motor. If you drain the oil out the car will keep going until the engine overheats and seizes up but cut the driveshaft it will not go anywhere.
Now you have to be careful with this theory in that when you mechanically break them, shots to the pelvic girdle, femur and so on they still may be able to shoot but they are severely limited on mobility.
You cannot rely on any, generally speaking, handgun round to drop someone out of the fight unless you hit a component of the CNS/brain or spinal cord. Blood loss will not cause an immediate cease in hostile activities even if the heart/aorta are completely destroyed. The human body can take a great deal of punishment and in many cases the brain will keep the body going on the remaining blood supply/oxygen it has stored.
Ask any hunter who has just heart shot a deer and spends the next 30 minutes tracking him. The heart is destroyed, no blood flowing yet the animal travelled a great distance before collapsing the human body is the same way.
In cases where severe pain is inflicted your body has a tremendous dump of natural chemicals to compensate for the blood loss. The brain although it composes about 2% of the total body weight takes up to 25% of the blood supply. Since the brain is in charge it can and will shut down blood supplies to internal organs and extremities to save itself and keep the body going.
This is for a person who is reacting naturally to a pain response and does not include those who are chemically or mentally altered. This category of aggressors can withstand tremendous amounts of abuse and keep on coming.
In regards to caliber there is no magic bullet that will end a gunfight quick enough unless you hit what has already been mentioned. To many folks today put to much faith in media hype, internet legend and statistics. It was not long ago that a study/survey was posted on here stating that all you need most of the time was a low round count .22 backed up by a shotgun to survive a home invasion and folks ran with it. Does that mean that we should all carry a simple .22 because of what the stats said? Not quite.
I carry a .380 on occasion and do not feel undergunned in the least. I have trained enough and know my skill level and more importantly the limitations of the weapon and ammunition I am carrying to be comfortable with it. Do I normally carry something bigger? Of course, but whatever I have on my person at that time, in that moment of need is what I will use whether it is a .22 or a big bore magnum.
The shot placement argument makes me laugh. Find someone that remains super calm in a life and death situation & then we can talk about how amazing shot placement is.
This statement really intrigues me. I can start by naming Jeff Cooper, Jim Cirillo and and others who have been in a host of lethal force encounters and came out on top because they put the bullet where it needed to go. Bullets by the way that many consider obsolete by today's super duper SD standards. Namely the 158 gr RNL .38 special and the 230 gr .45 cal ball.
Training, skill and mindset are what will get you through the event. You will have a multitude of emotions, physical and phycological events that will occur in the moment of need, it is how you have trained to react to these events that will keep you alive.
In closing, to the OP, carry what you feel comfortable with. Practice and train with it. There will always be some new super duper magnum blaster that will be the latest craze. Will it be better than what you have? Who knows. If you are involved in a lethal force encounter shoot them to the ground reload and be prepared to shoot some more he may not have gotten the memo or read the latest stats to know he is supposed to go down from 2.7 hits from your new self defense load.
It has and always will be the guy pulling the trigger not the equipment he is using that will prevail.
Just an opinion.
"A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013
The 500S&W is much more effective OWB for penetration. I get penetrating stares from everybody around.
No disrespect to any caliber, but practice with and carry it always. It's not what it can do, as much as what you can do.
"It's 90% half mental." - Yogi
Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776
Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
-Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95
Are there a rash of cases of people failing to properly self-defend because their .380 were inadequate?
^^^^YES and No^^^^^^^^^^^
What you both should realize is that, yes, many years ago people would take game animals, even dangerous game with smaller caliber weapons.
When a different round comes along, it isn't so much people forget the older round, and look at it as ineffective, its that the larger, quite possibly more potent new round will make up for, a longer shot perhaps, or the game animal moving at the last moment, thereby creating a tougher job for the bullet to bring the animal down in a capable manner.
I have made great shots on deer with a 30-30, and some have gone quite a bit farther than I had anticipated. Not out of site mind you, but still went farther than I thought they would.
I have shot coyotes, with 30-30 HP, and SP and either went 20-30 yds. but had such trauma they were goners.
The one that was shot with the HP had a hole going out that you could at least put your fist through, if not more.
I doubt you would get that from the most potent of rounds out of a handgun cartridge , but I'm sure Glockman10mm will correct me if I'm wrong.
You also must consider the fact that if .22lr, .25, or even .32 or .380 were effectual at bringing the BG down, then don't you think LEO's around the globe would use them?
The larger calibers, will aid in punching through layers of clothing, help make up for a difficult shot angle, the BG also on the move, as well as you, shooting under stress, not to mention as has been brought up before, a formidable attacker or 3.
Yes, even if you've went through the motions 1000 times at some training seminar.
I would rather die with good men than hide with cowards
If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy."
M&Pc .357SIG, 2340Sigpro .357SIG
I've personally seen 8"+ sized holes on deer from rifle rounds, never seen that with a pistol round.
I see a lot of people in this thread and many others here and around the internet that like to hop on the newest band wagon.
carry what is comfortable to you and that you shoot best, Take care
380s suck. Worthless. About as effective as a rock. Maybe. Maybe not. Unreal to think folks carry them.
Like me. Everyday. Love my 238.
You guys are funny.