Here's a curve ball

This is a discussion on Here's a curve ball within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by glockman10mm Count me in the number of the unenlightened. I'm not believing that anything out there works better than a lswc. A ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array 40Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Count me in the number of the unenlightened. I'm not believing that anything out there works better than a lswc.
    A dollar a bullet? No thanks, I'm not wasting that much money to send a criminal to hadees.
    Lead SWC's have been working for a while now.

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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array sdprof's Avatar
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    Then why did his agency place an order for up to 450 million .40 S&W JHP rounds (on a five year contract)?
    ~~~~~
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    I carry always not because I go places trouble is likely, but because trouble has a habit of not staying in its assigned zone.

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdprof View Post
    Then why did his agency place an order for up to 450 million .40 S&W JHP rounds (on a five year contract)?
    That was DHS, not ICE, though ICE is part of DHS (There are 37 agencies in DHS)

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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    That was DHS, not ICE, though ICE is part of DHS (There are 37 agencies in DHS)
    From the press release
    COMTEX/ -- ATK ATK -1.73% announced that it is being awarded an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) agreement from the Department of Homeland Security, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (DHS, ICE) for .40 caliber ammunition. This contract features a base of 12 months, includes four option years, and will have a maximum volume of 450 million rounds.
    ~~~~~
    The only common sense gun legislation was written about 224 years ago.

    I carry always not because I go places trouble is likely, but because trouble has a habit of not staying in its assigned zone.

  6. #20
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    Badge does not confer knowledge

    Just to add to what's been said, members of the U. S. Armed Forces and law enforcement officers/agents/folks are NOT all knowledgeable about firearms.

    Many of the people with whom I worked had never been interested in guns, had never held a gun prior to attending the Academy. Law enforcement people are just as silly as anyone else when it comes to myths, misconceptions and 'training from television'. And just for the record, gun and ammunition choices in most departments/agencies are decided by 'management' at some level, with some possible input from an 'expert' who may or may not know diddly squat and such input may or may not be followed. Cost is pretty important; gotta stay within the budget.

    Training is the minimum needed to protect the corporate agency tookus from lawsuits.

    One who studies the science and art of firearms and ammunition (most of you reading this) probably has a much greater understanding of both than the average law enforcement officer or military personnel. There are exceptions, but few.
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  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Count me in the number of the unenlightened. I'm not believing that anything out there works better than a lswc.
    A dollar a bullet? No thanks, I'm not wasting that much money to send a criminal to hadees.
    Or to keep you out? So many assume that they'll walk away unscathed.

    All other things being equal proper premium JHP ammunition gives one a (though slight) better chance of surviving the fight.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

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  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by John123 View Post
    I guess to some people guns are like how I look at computers... I could care less what kind of computer I'm issued or who makes it.
    Yeah, but their computers won't, potentially, save their lives one day.

  9. #23
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    Many mil/Leo personnel falsely equate annual qualification to "good enough training". As long as they can keep within standard they assume they are prepared, but if the mil or agency isn't making it mandatory for them to train or shoot more than annually they just won't do it.

    That would be like if I only PTd (physically trained) twice a year because that's how many times I have to run a pFT (physical fitness test).

    The guys who complain to me that they can't afford to buy a firearm to train on their own time are immediately asked if the government issued them their running shoes.

    (Answer: no, they have to pay for running shoes "go fasters" themselves as they do personally owned weapons.)

    Obviously not everyone in the Military or Law Enforcement are this dull, I was just as surprised as the OP when I found out that there are a decent number that are though. Thankfully there is a group in all parties that seek knowledge and training on their own time, (all mil/Leo's on this forum for instance) and continue to educate as much as possible.

    I've found that the guys uninterested in shooting were usually never raised around shooting and were exposed to it for the first time either at the academy or boot camp, and that's a sucky way to be exposed. Sure it's good training in the basics but it absolutely lacks in the "fun" factor. I loathe being told what to load, when to load, how to shoot from what position and spend over half my time at the range just sitting idly. During massive groups of shooters qualifying safety is so emphasized that shooters are never given a chance to really just get to know their rifle. In essence they learn the science of it, but never the art. They also tend to feel very squeamish around loaded weapons when there isn't a range master telling them exactly what to do and when to do it.

    I frequently practice shooting on the move, getting off the x, shooting from barricades and awkward positions. This is what I will default to when the bullets fly both ways, not annual qualification.

  10. #24
    Member Array Glockanista's Avatar
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    I am sticking with hollow points for my semiauto's and time tested SWC's in my 686 no matter what ICEMAN says.
    I practice the 2nd Amendment....alot

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by John123 View Post
    You would be surprised how many military and law enforcement personnel are absolutely clueless when it comes to firearms, let alone ballistics. I assumed at one point that the Mil/Leo crowd would all be part of "the gun club" but it just isn't so. If I had to guess you've probably got about a 1 in 4 chance of meeting a Mil/Leo who actually takes the time to shoot/train on their own time and on their own dollar, maybe less.

    Before I get flamed let me add that I am military, and have worked relatively close to some Leo's. I swear some of them would accept a hi-point 9mm no questions asked and drop it in their issued holster and go on duty... For many it's just a job and a paycheck, they won't bother spending a penny on their own equipment if they don't have to.

    I guess to some people guns are like how I look at computers... I could care less what kind of computer I'm issued or who makes it. I'll run the programs I have to on it and that's about it, whereas other people obsess over the computers issued; go over it with a fine toothed comb, delete old user profiles, figure out ways to speed it up for optimum performance...

    I love guns but don't really care about computers, I'll use mine until it stops working right, then I'll just get a new one that doesn't cost too much.

    To each his own I guess, but gunslingers we are all not. In my unit we have roughly 10% who have a CCW permit. That's just weak, but it is what it is. To some it's just a paycheck and you won't change their minds, just like they won't convince me about dell over gateway etc... As soon as they start talking processors I just glaze over, just like they do when I talk guns.
    Being a couple of decades of Marine, I really liked this post!

    My personal response to "Most Military don't......" is you are correct. However, it really depends on the MOS and where the Service Member grew up as for the interest in firearms training (beyond the minimum to get the points for promotion) and what type of units they are in. Meat Eaters train all the time on thier own dime. The rest of the herd does not.

    Police are often far more on one end of the spectrum (barely train or are 'like, Totally Tactical Dude').

    I am impressed with when I have met many of Military/Former Military people who are volunteer Police/Sherriff/EMT or other servants (have full time jobs) and do go out and train on thier own to be very professional when serving the public.

    Anyway, good post from the quote above.
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  12. #26
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    Wow, I'll just stick with the SWC and Wadcutter, and when I retire soon from my Lawenforcement career I will still carry the street proven SWC and WC
    in my revolvers. The only other round that has impressed me for the 9mm is Hornadys 135 +P critical duty other wise it will be a Federal 124+P EFMJ flat point (Expanding Full Metal Jacket).
    Shot placement is the most important because if you don't hit the vitals the bullet doesn't work.
    All bullet expansion does it puts the brakes on the bullet, wound chanel doesnt stop the bad guy, Taking out the computer, hydrolics or gurtal stops them.
    Oh and this LEO will continue to train one to two times a week.

    Pete
    Last edited by pete950; May 28th, 2012 at 02:22 PM.

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