45 ACP vs. 45 MAG

This is a discussion on 45 ACP vs. 45 MAG within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Remember......thicker case wall=lower powder capacity(given same chamber demensions)=lower velocities. If I wanted/needed more power from my 1911 platform than a CorBon,Double Tap,or handload could provide,I'd ...

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Thread: 45 ACP vs. 45 MAG

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array RSSZ's Avatar
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    Remember......thicker case wall=lower powder capacity(given same chamber demensions)=lower velocities.

    If I wanted/needed more power from my 1911 platform than a CorBon,Double Tap,or handload could provide,I'd simply switch to the Rowland. Then you'd pretty much have a true .44 magnum, 1911.

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  3. #17
    Member Array OpFlash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RSSZ View Post
    Remember......thicker case wall=lower powder capacity(given same chamber demensions)=lower velocities.
    Not exactly true. I would change it to this: "thicker case wall=lower powder capacity(given same chamber demensions)=higher pressures.

    The smaller powder space will increase pressure somewhat given everything else remains the same, but 45Super has a much higher pressure rating than .45ACP+P so you can use faster powders to achieve significantly higher velocities and energy levels. If this were not so then there would be no advantage to 45Super and no one would use it, but many do.
    "To my mind, it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." - The Nuge

  4. #18
    Member Array paknheat's Avatar
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    I have a friend who is a PH and he carries a LAR Griz in .45 Win Mag as his back-up piece. He has used it 2 times that i am aware of to stop wounded, angry Griz and Brown bears. If i were looking for a platform to carry that particular cartridge, i would purchase an old .44 mag Ruger RedHawk and send it to Hamilton Bowen for a conversion.
    A armed person is a citizen-An unarmed person is a future victim.

  5. #19
    Member Array bh153dc's Avatar
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    I have been doing alot of research since I started this thread and have come to the conclusion that either the 460 Rowland or the 45 Super are only worth it if you reload. The factory loads don't justify the extra 200 ft/sec above +P rounds. But for someone who doesn't want to load their own, I am seriously thinking about the
    50AE from Magnum Research.
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  6. #20
    Member Array Marcus's Avatar
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    A little history on the .45WM here. It was invented by Wildey Moore around 1974. Same guy who invented the Wildey pistol (who da thunk it?). The idea was to build an auto and round that would equal the .44 Auto Mag but use common .45ACP bullets. There were a few problems though. It`s usually not quite up to the typical power lever of .44AMP and bullets made for .45ACP sometimes don`t work so hot at 400fps. faster! He talked Winchester into making 1 million rounds of .45WM and 1 million rounds of 9mm WM (think HOT rimless .357mag.). Problem was for several years after the ammo was make there was only *one* Wildey pistol,displayed at shows with different length barrels and different grips. Not to mention the Wildey pistol has lousy ergos and has never been terribly reliable. Enter Perry Arnett. A gunsmith/engineer who loved 1911s and wanted more power and figured to burn up some of that ammo Winchester had just laying around. After doing the math and physics he realized that that kind of power would beat a std. 1911 frame to death so he designed the strongest 1911 ever made. Stretched it long enough to accept .357mag. (yes the revolver round) and developed something like 10 conversion kits (that actually worked reliably!) from .30 Mauser to .45WM. He partnered with manufacturing company LAR to produce them. Years later LAR developed longslide versions up to 10" and the Grizzly MkV in .50AE. There`s more to it but that`s the Cliff`s Notes version. .45 "Super" (hee hee) and .460 Rowland came along MUCH later in an effort to approach the .45WM. I`ve taken flak for this before but IMO shooting .460 Rowland in a std. 1911 frame is like shooting hot Buffalo Bore .45 Colt "+P" loads in a 2nd Gen Colt SAA revolver. LAR Grizzlys were made up until I think 2002 so there are lots of them around. There are usually at least 6 for sale on Gunbroker at any given time. 90% of the parts are interchangable with std. 1911 and the ones that aren`t are built like a battleship. I payed less for mine (with a set of dies,500rds. of virgin .45WM brass and 6 spare mags!) than a new Kimber so you can find one for a reasonable cost if you look. :) Great gun. Not as sexy or exotic as the .44 Auto Mag but easier to pack and probably more practical. Factory .45WM ammo is still available from Win., 260gr.JHP and a brand new 260gr. Partition Gold load and Corbon with their 325gr. LHC "bear buster" load. Marcus




  7. #21
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    10mm ammo isn't bad. Get Double Tap ammo (doubletapammo.com). A couple loads are:

    180gr XTP @ 1350fps 728fpe Glock 20 4.6"
    200gr XTP @ 1250fps 694fpe Glock 20 4.6"
    220gr Cast @ 1225fps 733fpe Glock 20 4.6"

    I get about 50fps more than the above figures in my 5" 1911. DT ammo is $24.50 per 50 rounds or about $.49 per round. Reloading can really save money. 1000 rounds cost about $150-160 versus almost $500 for factory. If you get a 10mm, don't get the watered down pansy loads. Get the full power loads. If the ME is less than 650fpe they are watered down.

    I would honestly say the practical limit for my beloved 10mm Auto is black bear. For brown bears on up, you are getting into revolver country. Look to the 454 Casull. For a practical auto cartridge, get a 50AE.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  8. #22
    Member Array Desperado's Avatar
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    I'm new to the forum and just read your post of 9/11. (I hope you haven't left for Montana yet!).
    I've lived in MT. and fished in AK. many times. Unless you take a '[U]really big' handgun, you might consider a combat shotgun loaded slug, buck, slug, buck, etc. Most of the bear guides I have talked to in AK. do not recommend a handgun as defense against the Great Bears. Good luck fishing!!!

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    I've not had ocassion to hunt bear but another handgun option you might consider includes the Guncrafter Industries 1911 and their 50GI round.


    http://www.guncrafterindustries.com/...artridge.shtml

    - Janq
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  10. #24
    Member Array Marcus's Avatar
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    .50GI is cool for thin skinned 2 legged targets but with such low velocities and a poor cross sectional density I wouldn`t expect it to be a good penetrator on heavily built thick skinned angry gritters with sharp teeth. Full tilt .50GI has a 300gr at 860fps ,CorBon .45WM has a 325gr. with much better sectional density at 1150fps. (and that`s not a full house load either) That`s a big difference. A NOS LAR Grizzly is half the price of a GCI No.1 .50GI too. Marcus

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array raevan's Avatar
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    Well I'm convinced, I have got to find me a LAR Grizzly in .45WM. Also want a Colt Delta Elite.

  12. #26
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    My $.02.

    I live in western Montana, really in a hotbed of grizzly activity and I have done a little research, I recommend you do the same...

    While I am a huge proponent of taking a sidearm into the field with you whenever you go, I don't recommend it to be your PRIMARY defense against a bear, especially a grizzly. What then? Bear spray! The stuff is pepper spray only much, MUCH more potent that the human stuff. In fact the can I have says it's illegal to use it on humans, go figure!!!

    I went to a seminar a few years back presented by a grizzly expert from yellowstone (forget his name) in which he related many stories and pictures of defenses against bear attacks. The readers' digest version is the vast majority of people who defended with guns were seriously injured or killed and the vast majority who defended with bear spray were slightly injured or completely unharmed. I further verified this by researching other bear deterrent methods, all pointed to the same conclusion, bear spray.

    Wait till you get here to buy it. It is widely available at every sporting goods store, and it's pretty cheap. Maybe $15. Then you can just give it away when you go home, I don't think TSA will let it on the plane!
    There are two sizes... large=scare 'em off and small=piss 'm off! Choose the right one.

    Now come enjoy God's country!

    Dave.

  13. #27
    New Member Array JonahHex's Avatar
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    45 win mag 45 long colt

    What is the difference between 45 win mag 45 long colt?

  14. #28
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    "I hate 44 REM MAG's, I have never been able to fire that cannon."

    These specialty .45 caliber cartridges you are investigating are also going to leave you with the impression of a cannon the first time you touch one off. The 10mm might just be the ticket as a holster gun for your purposes.
    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonahHex View Post
    What is the difference between 45 win mag 45 long colt?
    The .45 Colt was introduced in the Colt Model 1873 Single Action Army revolver. Originally designed for use with black powder as a propellant, it operates at low pressures. The cartridge formerly was made to utilize .454 diameter lead bullets but in more recent times has been standardized at .452 diameter.

    The .45 Winchester Magnum is a rimless development intended for use in semi-automatic pistols. It also utilizes .452 diameter bullets but its operating pressure is high, around 40,000 psi like the straight-walled magnum revolver cartridges.

    These two .45 cartridges may shoot the same diameter bullet but are not interchangeable, due both to cartridge dimensions, and designed operating pressures.
    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

  16. #30
    Member Array IsaiahM33's Avatar
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    As someone who's used .45+p, .45 Super, and .50 AE, let me throw my 2 cents in and say that while .45 Super is a step above .45+p, .50 AE will grab you by the booboo! Another thing you should consider is the size of the Desert Eagle .50 AE. It is HEAVY and BIG. I loved mine. I had more fun shooting that big DE than anything else in my inventory. From what I understand (I've never been Grizzly hunting now) is that a 300-350 grain projectile going 1200-1500 fps will pack a wallop! Enough to down a Grizzly? Don't ask me. But I'd sooner take along the Desert Eagle than my .45 Super converted Glock 21. Oh, I'm sure the reliability question will pop up soon concerning the DE. Mine was good to go after the first mag. One failure to feed (probably due to my limp wristing) and golden after that. (.50 AE isn't cheap either!)
    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

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