FBI Standards: Should we care? - Page 2

FBI Standards: Should we care?

This is a discussion on FBI Standards: Should we care? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I "accept" the FBI standards and test data as relevant, but not absolute. Likewise, IWBA and Fackler et al have good input, but they are ...

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  1. #16
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    I "accept" the FBI standards and test data as relevant, but not absolute. Likewise, IWBA and Fackler et al have good input, but they are focused on repeatable lab test results and tend to ignore what happens on the street.

    At the end of the day I choose a defensive round based on track record (on the street), availability, and I'll accept promising lab test results.
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  2. #17
    Member Array torgo1968's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    I'd trust the guys at Hornady (who have to turn a profit) to give me a product that works vs. using FBI specs to choose my SD rounds.
    Yes, because corporations never over-hype, lie, put out faulty products, etc.

  3. #18
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    I say, no, we probably don't need to worry about ammo penetrating 12" or being able to expand after penetrating 4 layers of denim. In most cases, FMJ target ammo would probably work. But the thing is... most ammo that passes FBI standards isn't hard to find... so why not use it? Yeah, it's more expensive, but in my opinion it's worth it. I carry 9mm 147gr HST in my G19 or .45ACP 230gr +P HST in my G30. Have my HD pistol loaded with .45ACP 185gr +P. All rounds pass FBI testing. I just think, yes, most other ammo with probably work, but why NOT use FBI standard ammo? If it's good enough for them................

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    zombie max are FBI approved

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    I think if you really wanted to do it right .... if you want to consider the FBI standards, then you would have to also compare that to their results.... in how many shootings has FBI agents been killed, in how many shoot outs has the BG's that were shot survived, how long they continued in the fight, and who was the winner of the fight.

    To heck with lab .... what's the statistics and results on their real life gun fights, and given the situations they were in, did the ammo perform well and as expected.

    I've never seen anyone produce that.

    It's like when I asked someone "how many of these have failed in an accident " ......
    their answer : "none that we know of " ,
    My next question : "is that because when they failed, that the person relying on them is dead or died ? "
    their answer : ??????

    I have never been attacked by gelatin, and don't see it happening in the near future.
    For those that don't think of FMJ as a defensive round, hope that you never have to shoot thru glass. Been there, after that is when I started carrying one of my extra mags full of FMJ with me.
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    I'm no fan of the FBI but one thing they do do right is ballistic testing.
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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post

    I have never been attacked by gelatin, and don't see it happening in the near future.
    For those that don't think of FMJ as a defensive round, hope that you never have to shoot thru glass. Been there, after that is when I started carrying one of my extra mags full of FMJ with me.
    I understand having your mads staggered with HP and FMJ. But having a seperate mag? If you have HP in your gun what do you do if you need FMJ real quick? Change mags...I have heard of folks doing this before and it makes no sense to me. What you think you need should be in your gun, not in your mag holder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I understand having your mads staggered with HP and FMJ. But having a seperate mag? If you have HP in your gun what do you do if you need FMJ real quick? Change mags...I have heard of folks doing this before and it makes no sense to me. What you think you need should be in your gun, not in your mag holder.
    Since I usually carry three extra mags, anyway, one loaded with FMJ isn't a problem. Better to have it and not need it...
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Since I usually carry three extra mags, anyway, one loaded with FMJ isn't a problem. Better to have it and not need it...
    I guess what I am saying is what if you need FMJ first. What do you anticipate doing...having a threat in front of you, determine what ballistics you need and then change mags? My feeling is what I have in my mag better be what I need and is enough. I only carry an extra mag in case of a malfunction and when not carrying a BUG. I don't carry extra ammo for a prolonged battle or for different anticipated targets.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    I think if you really wanted to do it right .... if you want to consider the FBI standards, then you would have to also compare that to their results.... in how many shootings has FBI agents been killed, in how many shoot outs has the BG's that were shot survived, how long they continued in the fight, and who was the winner of the fight.
    The problem with this is that there are too many variables. Bad guy's weight, height, age, health, strength, on drugs or not, what psychological condition is he in, and on and on and on. You'd have to have a massive sample size and then carefully try to match the variables in every individual shooting to make valid comparisons. The point of a gelatin test isn't to perfectly duplicate a human body, but to provide a repeatable standard so that ammo comparisons can have some meaning.

    I've never seen anyone produce that.
    You can't. And it's really dangerous to rely on that kind of data. We've read news stories where people were dropped with a single .22 round and conversely, bad guys getting shot a bazillion times with a 9mm and living. I don't think any of us would recommend .22 as a self defense round based on that. Sure, you could gather as many after-reports as possible and sort them by easy stats like caliber, number of shots fired, etc. But they would likely be meaningless because we don't know what role the many other variables played.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by fastk9dad View Post
    You might find this video interesting...

    What's interesting to me about this video is that he is claiming that after the Army switched back to the .45 SAA from the .38 S&W (not .38 Spl) revolver, the Army still had issues with Moro fighters not stopping despite hits from the .45. While I'd like to see some documentation to support this, it is entirely believeable, since we know of failures to stop with .45 pistol, as well as full-on rifle bullets, to this very day.

    I also like how he puts the capacity issue - "It allows you to stay in the fight longer."

    Nothing really new, but still a nice video. Thanks for posting it!
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by torgo1968 View Post
    Yes, because corporations never over-hype, lie, put out faulty products, etc.
    Compared to the government I'll take my chances. Lord knows they're an honest bunch.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    Compared to the government I'll take my chances. Lord knows they're an honest bunch.
    Yup, the 1964 Surgeon General's report on tobacco was clearly an effort to discredit honest cigarette makers.
    Vaquero 45 likes this.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    I'd trust the guys at Hornady (who have to turn a profit) to give me a product that works vs. using FBI specs to choose my SD rounds. And Hornady is just an example, ANY bullet manufacturer probably does more and better testing than the FBI ever dreamed.
    - I can't place my trust in Hornady after the reported primer issues with their Critical Defense ammunition.
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I guess what I am saying is what if you need FMJ first. What do you anticipate doing...having a threat in front of you, determine what ballistics you need and then change mags? My feeling is what I have in my mag better be what I need and is enough. I only carry an extra mag in case of a malfunction and when not carrying a BUG. I don't carry extra ammo for a prolonged battle or for different anticipated targets.
    When I am on my bicycle, the FMJ are in the pistol, where I anticipate I will need it. At other times, my regular SD is in the pistol.
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
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