This is a discussion on FBI Standards: Should we care? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I "accept" the FBI standards and test data as relevant, but not absolute. Likewise, IWBA and Fackler et al have good input, but they are ...
I "accept" the FBI standards and test data as relevant, but not absolute. Likewise, IWBA and Fackler et al have good input, but they are focused on repeatable lab test results and tend to ignore what happens on the street.
At the end of the day I choose a defensive round based on track record (on the street), availability, and I'll accept promising lab test results.
Smitty
NRA Endowment Member
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Yes, because corporations never over-hype, lie, put out faulty products, etc.Originally Posted by smolck
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I say, no, we probably don't need to worry about ammo penetrating 12" or being able to expand after penetrating 4 layers of denim. In most cases, FMJ target ammo would probably work. But the thing is... most ammo that passes FBI standards isn't hard to find... so why not use it? Yeah, it's more expensive, but in my opinion it's worth it. I carry 9mm 147gr HST in my G19 or .45ACP 230gr +P HST in my G30. Have my HD pistol loaded with .45ACP 185gr +P. All rounds pass FBI testing. I just think, yes, most other ammo with probably work, but why NOT use FBI standard ammo? If it's good enough for them................
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zombie max are FBI approved
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I think if you really wanted to do it right .... if you want to consider the FBI standards, then you would have to also compare that to their results.... in how many shootings has FBI agents been killed, in how many shoot outs has the BG's that were shot survived, how long they continued in the fight, and who was the winner of the fight.
To heck with lab .... what's the statistics and results on their real life gun fights, and given the situations they were in, did the ammo perform well and as expected.
I've never seen anyone produce that.
It's like when I asked someone "how many of these have failed in an accident " ......
their answer : "none that we know of " ,
My next question : "is that because when they failed, that the person relying on them is dead or died ? "
their answer : ??????
I have never been attacked by gelatin, and don't see it happening in the near future.
For those that don't think of FMJ as a defensive round, hope that you never have to shoot thru glass. Been there, after that is when I started carrying one of my extra mags full of FMJ with me.
I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."
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I understand having your mads staggered with HP and FMJ. But having a seperate mag? If you have HP in your gun what do you do if you need FMJ real quick? Change mags...I have heard of folks doing this before and it makes no sense to me. What you think you need should be in your gun, not in your mag holder.
Since I usually carry three extra mags, anyway, one loaded with FMJ isn't a problem. Better to have it and not need it...
Kahn Souphanousinphone, Sr. "I could be manic, could be depressed. Real crapshoot."
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I guess what I am saying is what if you need FMJ first. What do you anticipate doing...having a threat in front of you, determine what ballistics you need and then change mags? My feeling is what I have in my mag better be what I need and is enough. I only carry an extra mag in case of a malfunction and when not carrying a BUG. I don't carry extra ammo for a prolonged battle or for different anticipated targets.
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The problem with this is that there are too many variables. Bad guy's weight, height, age, health, strength, on drugs or not, what psychological condition is he in, and on and on and on. You'd have to have a massive sample size and then carefully try to match the variables in every individual shooting to make valid comparisons. The point of a gelatin test isn't to perfectly duplicate a human body, but to provide a repeatable standard so that ammo comparisons can have some meaning.
You can't. And it's really dangerous to rely on that kind of data. We've read news stories where people were dropped with a single .22 round and conversely, bad guys getting shot a bazillion times with a 9mm and living. I don't think any of us would recommend .22 as a self defense round based on that. Sure, you could gather as many after-reports as possible and sort them by easy stats like caliber, number of shots fired, etc. But they would likely be meaningless because we don't know what role the many other variables played.I've never seen anyone produce that.
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What's interesting to me about this video is that he is claiming that after the Army switched back to the .45 SAA from the .38 S&W (not .38 Spl) revolver, the Army still had issues with Moro fighters not stopping despite hits from the .45. While I'd like to see some documentation to support this, it is entirely believeable, since we know of failures to stop with .45 pistol, as well as full-on rifle bullets, to this very day.
I also like how he puts the capacity issue - "It allows you to stay in the fight longer."
Nothing really new, but still a nice video. Thanks for posting it!
NRA Life Member; Range Safety Officer
www.armedcitizensnetwork.org - member
Glock 30, 19, 26; Ruger LCP (2), LCR, Mini 14; Remington 870; Marlin 336 .30-30
CT Lasers
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Compared to the government I'll take my chances. Lord knows they're an honest bunch.
Yup, the 1964 Surgeon General's report on tobacco was clearly an effort to discredit honest cigarette makers.
Kahn Souphanousinphone, Sr. "I could be manic, could be depressed. Real crapshoot."
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- I can't place my trust in Hornady after the reported primer issues with their Critical Defense ammunition.
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote." ~ Benjamin Franklin
When I am on my bicycle, the FMJ are in the pistol, where I anticipate I will need it. At other times, my regular SD is in the pistol.
Kahn Souphanousinphone, Sr. "I could be manic, could be depressed. Real crapshoot."
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