FBI Standards: Should we care? - Page 3

FBI Standards: Should we care?

This is a discussion on FBI Standards: Should we care? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Mike1956 When I am on my bicycle, the FMJ are in the pistol, where I anticipate I will need it. At other ...

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Thread: FBI Standards: Should we care?

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    When I am on my bicycle, the FMJ are in the pistol, where I anticipate I will need it. At other times, my regular SD is in the pistol.
    What do you do when you get off your bike? Just messing with ya.


  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    What do you do when you get off your bike? Just messing with ya.
    For a guy who, a short time ago didn't care much for the dancing banana, it certainly seems to have grown on you.
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
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  3. #33
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    For a guy who, a short time ago didn't care much for the dancing banana, it certainly seems to have grown on you.
    I only disapprove of the inappropriate use of the dancing bannana
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  4. #34
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    Remember, what the FBI set up was what they felt they needed for their scenarios and arguably what they felt many LE agencies may run into. Most civilians aren't going to be shooting through glass and steel and sheetrock. Heavy clothing? Interesting b/c I suppose in some places outside my own semi-tropical outpost of pardise folks might wear something heavy enough to affect some rounds. Here, though "heavy" clothing is a t-shirt and a mid-weight jacket. For my duty ammo, I am concerned about most of the FBI's requirements. I might have to shoot a perp who is in a vehicle (steel, tempered glass, plastic, etc.). In my OD pistols (other than my PM40 for which I can occationally raid our ammo supply) I am more concerned with reliability and accuracy than the what the FBI sets up for duty ammo. I also have to concern myself with a round that fits into a small enough package that it will hide and be undectable in our often way-too-hot-to-dress-around-the-piece conceament weather.
    An expanded round arguably cuts a bigger hole, but it's really only a little bigger (bullet size vs chest size). Mainly just be sure at least one of the rounds you're pumping into the bad guy (you are shooting more than one, right?) is going through the vitals/CNS and he won't care if it's FBI approved or not.
    So, in summary, yes I consider the FBI's protocol, but I also consider personal factors as well when it comes to SD as opposed to duty carry.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I only disapprove of the inappropriate use of the dancing bannana

    How do you feel about dancing grenades ?
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

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  6. #36
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I understand having your mads staggered with HP and FMJ. But having a seperate mag? If you have HP in your gun what do you do if you need FMJ real quick? Change mags...I have heard of folks doing this before and it makes no sense to me. What you think you need should be in your gun, not in your mag holder.
    I can change out that mag, awlfully quick, with no problem. Do what makes sense to you, and I'll do what makes sense to me. The first round fired, will be whatever is in the chamber.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
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  7. #37
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    "What's interesting to me about this video is that he is claiming that after the Army switched back to the .45 SAA from the .38 S&W (not .38 Spl) revolver, the Army still had issues with Moro fighters not stopping despite hits from the .45."

    Haven't watched the video yet but this is highly interesting for the simple reason that the Army never issued or used revolvers chambered for the .38 S&W cartridges but rather used the .38 Long Colt.

    Apparently I don't care about the FBI standards for I'm still using the same loads from since long before the FBI tests were devised. While not claiming to be able to unfailingly deliver perfect hits under the stress of an attack, when the deal goes down accurate shot placement will count for far more than whether or not the bullet meets FBI standards. Too many seek magic bullets and the FBI test standards does not a magic bullet make.

    "Sure, you could gather as many after-reports as possible and sort them by easy stats like caliber, number of shots fired, etc. But they would likely be meaningless because we don't know what role the many other variables will play."


    Torgo1968's comment says it best and the FBI tests should properly be placed in the context of his statement, that is to say they are likely meaningless as well.

    But they sure meet the "standards" in jello wrapped in the proper layers of denim material.
    smolck likes this.
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  8. #38
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Another question, why 4 layers of denim? Do most bad guys wear 2 denim shirts and 2 jean jackets? Seems like an arbitrary thing somebody just pulled out of thin air.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    Another question, why 4 layers of denim? Do most bad guys wear 2 denim shirts and 2 jean jackets? Seems like an arbitrary thing somebody just pulled out of thin air.
    Because you aren't likely to be shooting at someone standing in front of you like a paper target. The reaction of most people is to turn or duck so could you hit someone in the arm first, thats 2 layers (one on each side) then you have the jacket, where you could hit a pocket (so there is an inner and outer layer) or an overlapped coat/shirt. It's the same reason as why they want 12-14" of penetration, for those side shot where it might go through an arm before it enters the body.
    "I got a lot of problems with you people!" - Frank Costanza

  10. #40
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    where the FBI tests fail is they need to test it on hoodies since you are more likely to have to shoot through a hoodie then denim these days
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  11. #41
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    where the FBI tests fail is they need to test it on hoodies since you are more likely to have to shoot through a hoodie then denim these days
    I think the FBI should use rapists and child molesters as ballistic media.

  12. #42
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    The good thing about the FBI tests is they provide a standard for comparison. What you do with the results is up to you.

    Personally, I don't pay much attention to them and don't recall seeing any published results. My bullets of choice for SD are:
    .380ACP = handloaded JHP
    .327 Fed = Federal 85g reduced recoil JSP (wife's gun)
    9mm Luger = handloaded 115g Gold Dot
    .45ACP = Federal Hydra-Shok (I forget the weight and don't want to open the safe.
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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    Another question, why 4 layers of denim? Do most bad guys wear 2 denim shirts and 2 jean jackets? Seems like an arbitrary thing somebody just pulled out of thin air.
    Yeah, would the odd silk undies worn by some assailant throw a kink in the standards? It really is difficult to place a lot of stock in the FBI tests but one may believe whatever he wants to believe in.
    Charter Member of the DC .41 LC Society "Get heeled! No really"

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  14. #44
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    Are crash test dummies identical to live people?

    No.

    However, what they are is a medium that is repeatable, time after time, so one can directly compare results from as identical of a situation as a can be reproduced. The tests can give valuable data on how real people may fare in a similar crash. One can determine which vehicles are, more or less, safer than others.

    Same for denim/gel. No, they are not identical to people. No, 4-layer denim is not identicla to clothing someone would wear.

    All it represents is an objective, repeatable standard. 10% gelatin, mixed from a certain recipe, at 60 degrees, calibrated by a pellet; covered by (the exact weight escapes me) denim; a difficult, target. many hollowpoints fail this test.

    What has been observed is that rounds that do pass this test--that is, expand after 4-layer denim and still penetrate the 12-18 inches, have a better track record in the real world that bullets that don't expand and/or don't penetrate to 12+ inches.

    The same way thta crash test dummies can show whether a person is more or less likely to be injured in a crash in a certain vehicle.

    Personally, I see no good reason to not choose a round that passes these test, given that it feeds reliably in my pistol and I;ve found that it is accurate and controllable when I shoot. Yes, placement is important; after that, I will take every single last edge I can get.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

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  15. #45
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    I have known too many people in the FBI for too long to worry about my ammunition meeting their criteria.
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