FBI Standards: Should we care? - Page 4

FBI Standards: Should we care?

This is a discussion on FBI Standards: Should we care? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Should we care, yes. Is it absolute, of course not. And don't forget that the shootout that led to the FBI ammo testing was just ...

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Thread: FBI Standards: Should we care?

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array Superhouse 15's Avatar
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    Should we care, yes. Is it absolute, of course not. And don't forget that the shootout that led to the FBI ammo testing was just as much a placement fail as a stopping power fail. People survive new generation ammo and people still get killed by Silvertips and .380s.

    I just carry whatever name brand stuff is in stock at the gunshop, and after a few years experience on the streets I am willing to accept less penetration than some in favor of expansion, I don't stagger rounds in my magazine, and I don't care for FMJ in defense loads. I just get a box of whatever, test fire some, and carry it until I eventually shoot it all up and then repeat.
    Doghandler likes this.
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  2. #47
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    I carry Ranger T's in 9MM +P+ and will continue to shoot the BG to the ground until he stops doing bad things toward me. If I have to reload a second mag of 15 rounds so be it. They also get dispatched into the BG. Having taken 5 Gun Fighting Courses in the last 2.5 years, I do the drills at my indoor range every couple of weeks. The right drills and skills will help you to overcome what the BG's want to do to you and your's.
    Praise the Lord my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle --- Psalm 144
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  3. #48
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    Bullets of every type and and calibers of every size have worked great and failed miserably. I don't spend a lot of time pondering about it.
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  4. #49
    Senior Member Array AZ Desertrat's Avatar
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    I will accept the FBI standards....however....I test all ammo myself in many different ways to prove to ME that it will
    work when I need it to.
    "The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people; it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government--lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." --Patrick Henry

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  5. #50
    VIP Member Array Gene83's Avatar
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    I trust the FBI to choose ammo and I'm now allowing the Secret Service to screen women for me.
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  6. #51
    Member Array TinkMan308's Avatar
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    Thoughts

    1. First, Any caliber carried is better than none
    2 The theme I see is that all calibers in question, commercial ammo meeting FBI/IWBA specs, are the same.
    3. All calibers are not the same, they were created equal. If I reload a 300 Win Mag and a 308 Win I can make them perform the same. The 300 Win Mag will always have more potential.
    4. If you are satisfied/trust the FBI/IWBA protocols as definitive you have no fight in the "caliber war". If you don't....
    5. Shot the biggest fastest bullet in a reliable weapon that you can you can accurately shoot and will carry.

  7. #52
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    What matters is shooting until the threat ceases. Do that, and it wont matter where the statistics come from.
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  8. #53
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    FBI Standards: Should we care?
    Sure. It's just one more input and point of reference, along with claims by a manufacturer based on their (or independent) tests, along with my own tests. No guarantees, but in the absence of a better method it's a reasonable place to start.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  9. #54
    Distinguished Member Array CDW4ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fastk9dad View Post
    Because you aren't likely to be shooting at someone standing in front of you like a paper target. The reaction of most people is to turn or duck so could you hit someone in the arm first, thats 2 layers (one on each side) then you have the jacket, where you could hit a pocket (so there is an inner and outer layer) or an overlapped coat/shirt. It's the same reason as why they want 12-14" of penetration, for those side shot where it might go through an arm before it enters the body.
    Why 4 layers of denim, has been logically explained.
    No internal lock or magazine disconnect on my pistols!

  10. #55
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    The FBI and IWBA establish a repeatable metric for measurement. They should also show high speed video of the bullet striking the test medium. That will show the energy shedding as the bullet travels thru the medium.

    If you say that energy means nothing then why is the 300 win mag so much more devastating than the 308 win? What is the velocity floor for increased damage? My own totally unscientific opinion garnered from seeing people shot and hunting makes me think about 1100-1200 FPS as a bottom floor, then 1350-1400 FPS as another step, then 2200 FPS as another step and so on. Or is it maybe that as we increase velocity we square the energy (M times V squared). This would cause exponentially more damage. This would also explain why many rounds of varying designs, weights, and velocities penetrate the same distance in jello and mushroom out the same. I do not know of a metric to gauge hydrostatic effect and know that there is a huge crowd that denies the existence, stating that it "Only happens at rifle velocities", what velocity is that and where is the proof?

    As to the original question, I ask this; When was the last time the FBI was in a shootout? We are from the government, we are here to help you.

  11. #56
    VIP Member Array GhostMaker's Avatar
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    Just after the "Miami Massacre" that involved the FBI, I had chance to go through the Bureau's Ballistic Research Project that was put on via state law enforcement agencies. The data from this and the "standards" that have been put forth are something we can use in the overall decision making process. Before the Bureau started this project the U.S. Border Patrol did a similar study on handgun effectiveness when they carried revolvers. (To my knowledge their training unit still does its own research). All of this information is useful but is not definitive. Alot of researchers, for example, marginally rate the 110 grain 357 Magnum. However, the Border Patrol laid low countless felons with this same load, as well as the U.S. Marshalls. So my take on it is this....keep what is useful, file the rest for reference, and base you choices on what seems to produce the best results and what you can actually score hits with.

  12. #57
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    I take all well thought out research into contemplation. I would not ignore what the world's premiere law enforcement agency has to say on a subject. I may/may not buy into it, but I sure wouldn't ignore it.
    "People who take an Internet handle of a great warrior, are usually the first to go fetal when crunch time comes." - Me

  13. #58
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinkMan308 View Post
    5. Shot the biggest fastest bullet in a reliable weapon that you can you can accurately shoot and will carry.
    Actually, the IWBA's Duncan MacPherson's work shows that you should shoot the heaviest and slowest bullet in a given handgun cartridge so you don't waste energy creating a temporary stretch cavity.
    chefjon likes this.

  14. #59
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDW4ME View Post
    Why 4 layers of denim, has been logically explained.
    Part of the IWBA's test protocol for a worst-case scenario, designed to plug the cavity of a hollow-point bullet to prevent the JHP bullet from expanding. Full protocol and the reasoning behind it fully explained in the Journal of the International Wound Ballistics Association. See also FirearmsTactical.com

  15. #60
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostMaker View Post
    Before the Bureau started this project the U.S. Border Patrol did a similar study on handgun effectiveness when they carried revolvers. (To my knowledge their training unit still does its own research). All of this information is useful but is not definitive. Alot of researchers, for example, marginally rate the 110 grain 357 Magnum. However, the Border Patrol laid low countless felons with this same load, as well as the U.S. Marshalls. So my take on it is this....keep what is useful, file the rest for reference, and base you choices on what seems to produce the best results and what you can actually score hits with.
    I was in the BP at that time and most of us did not carry that load, I saw a couple of shootings with it. It created a devastating wound. The most memorable was after the BG stabbed the Agent, the Agent double tapped him COM, about 3" apart spread vertical one above, one below the nipple line from almost contact distance. The bullets totally fragmented, they worked as designed for this scenario. I did not like the fact that they fragmented like that and prefer deeper penetration.

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