FBI Standards: Should we care?

This is a discussion on FBI Standards: Should we care? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by marcclarke Actually, the IWBA's Duncan MacPherson's work shows that you should shoot the heaviest and slowest bullet in a given handgun cartridge ...

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Thread: FBI Standards: Should we care?

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcclarke View Post
    Actually, the IWBA's Duncan MacPherson's work shows that you should shoot the heaviest and slowest bullet in a given handgun cartridge so you don't waste energy creating a temporary stretch cavity.
    Not to pick a fight, however, why is a temporary cavity a waste of energy? It must be doing something.

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    Not to pick a fight, however, why is a temporary cavity a waste of energy? It must be doing something.
    With handgun ammunition unlike rifle ammunition the temporary stretch cavity is not sufficient to cause any additional tearing/bleeding.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

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  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    With handgun ammunition unlike rifle ammunition the temporary stretch cavity is not sufficient to cause any additional tearing/bleeding.
    What is the threshold? The full power 357 magnum and loads such as the 357 Sig traveling at or near 1400FPS have significantly more terminal effect than the same or similar bullets traveling at or near 1100 fps or so. Even low energy impacts such as auto accidents can and do burst hollow organs. There is handgun ammo that varies in energy and velocity tremendously and a blanket statement like that sounds as is someone has an agenda. The temporary cavity may not be as dramatic with a handgun, but to rule it out completely is not honest reporting.

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    What is the threshold? The full power 357 magnum and loads such as the 357 Sig traveling at or near 1400FPS have significantly more terminal effect than the same or similar bullets traveling at or near 1100 fps or so. Even low energy impacts such as auto accidents can and do burst hollow organs. There is handgun ammo that varies in energy and velocity tremendously and a blanket statement like that sounds as is someone has an agenda. The temporary cavity may not be as dramatic with a handgun, but to rule it out completely is not honest reporting.
    I'd love to look at any scientific data you have to to support that.

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    The criteria for rifle ammunition is essentially the same as for handgun bullets, and many of the same design factors apply. One important difference for rifle ammunition is that the velocities are much higher, and the effect of the temporary cavity starts contributing quite a bit towards creating damage, especially as one moves up in caliber/velocity.

    Wound Ballistics
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcclarke View Post
    Actually, the IWBA's Duncan MacPherson's work shows that you should shoot the heaviest and slowest bullet in a given handgun cartridge so you don't waste energy creating a temporary stretch cavity.
    1. Not worried about wasting energy, just making the biggest two holes I can. One in front, one out the back.
    2. Increase my bullets ability to penetrate whatever I am shooting

  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    I'd love to look at any scientific data you have to to support that.

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    The criteria for rifle ammunition is essentially the same as for handgun bullets, and many of the same design factors apply. One important difference for rifle ammunition is that the velocities are much higher, and the effect of the temporary cavity starts contributing quite a bit towards creating damage, especially as one moves up in caliber/velocity.

    Wound Ballistics
    Here is really the crux of the matter. Those that worship the alter of jello feel that the prediction of how a certain bullet will perform by laboratory analysis is actually more important than how it really does work. That is just one tool. By your definition anything that does not happen in the laboratory environment is hearsay and inadmissible. That is like taking medication that was developed in the lab and never tested on anything alive.
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  8. #67
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    Something to consider.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    Here is really the crux of the matter. Those that worship the alter of jello feel that the prediction of how a certain bullet will perform by laboratory analysis is actually more important than how it really does work. That is just one tool. By your definition anything that does not happen in the laboratory environment is hearsay and inadmissible. That is like taking medication that was developed in the lab and never tested on anything alive.
    Sorry friend but anything you can't substantiate beyond the "cuz you said so" just doesn't hack it. When I first got into LE the old timers told me our issue Remington 158gr JHP ammo would crack an engine bock ......... guess what ........ it ain't so. Terminal ballistics can be scientifically measured and predicted, old cop war stories are just old cop war stories ......... and yes I'm Old and a Former Cop.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

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  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    Sorry friend but anything you can't substantiate beyond the "cuz you said so" just doesn't hack it. When I first got into LE the old timers told me our issue Remington 158gr JHP ammo would crack an engine bock ......... guess what ........ it ain't so. Terminal ballistics can be scientifically measured and predicted, old cop war stories are just old cop war stories ......... and yes I'm Old and a Former Cop.
    Well, here;

    The severity of any injury resulting from Temporary Cavitation is highly dependent on anatomic and physiologic considerations. For example, elastic, flexible soft tissues, such as muscle, bowel wall, skin, blood vessels, and empty hollow organs are good energy absorbers and are highly resistant to temporary cavity stretch injuries, while inelastic tissues, such as brain, liver, kidney, spleen, pancreas, and completely full fluid or gas filled hollow organs are highly susceptible to severe splitting, tearing, or rupture due to Temporary Cavity stretch insults.
    This is from Doc Roberts, shot placement.
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  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    Well, here;

    This is from Doc Roberts, shot placement.
    ......... all true, however if you continue reading all the material you'll note that handgun calibers don't develop enough velocity to cause large enough temporary wound cavities to cause these soft tissues to reach the maximum ability to stretch without rupture. Such cavities START to become relevant with high velocity rifle rounds. The only relevant cavity with handgun ammunition is the permanent wound cavity.

    ETA: Wound Ballistics 101
    By Paul Gomez


    Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much
    discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth.
    The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood
    bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding.
    Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the
    participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get
    you killed." Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase
    bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size
    of hole made by the bullet.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

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  12. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    The Feds need all the help they can get.:)
    Did you watch the video?

    I kept thinking of you when he kept going on about how crappy handguns are, etc. He said that a handgun round has to strike a vital organ inorder to be effective as if a rifle doesn't live by the same rules. I have a Pat Rogers training DVD where he explains there's a difference between a shot to the head as opposed to being shot in a vital area of the brain. There are people, for example, that have been shot in the head by a 5.56 and have survived. He goes on to emphasize shot placement, etc.

    I think you would also have a different take on his summation of what resulted from the Miami shootout.

    I do pay attention to FBI tests. Why not benefit from their studies? Stopping BGs after all is their business. I'm assuming they take anecdotal evidence from the streets into account as well. I don't think their tests are completely arbitrary in nature. I really don't know why they can't use dead pigs for their tests as opposed to gelatin. With the wild pig population being as it is, why can't we test on the ones that have already been harvested?

  13. #72
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    If you do not take anecdotal data from the street you are only getting half the information.

    Tactical Life Defense Loads of Choice: The Word from the Street
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  14. #73
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    Well, yea, I do find relevance in the FBI Standards. The Agency developed these standards in the aftermath of the Miami shootout where agents were killed. These standards were designed to give their agents a fighting chance in the next gun battle. Its not like a bloated agency just writing some law on how to dispose of used light bulbs or whatever. Where I live, people wear multiple layers of denim, flannel, sweaters, jackets, etc over a large portion of the year. Yes, I feel more confident knowing the HP bullet I carry has a good chance of penetrating through those layers if the need should arise. What if you need to shoot through auto glass in response to a car jack attempt? I'm going on memory here, but I think the concern of some manufactures, including, I think Hornaday, was ( is) the possible liability, or at the very least, negative PR, resulting from an accidental death in the event of over penetration of an "FBI "bullet". I think the feeling was (is), the FBI standards were designed for tactical situations that the average 'Joe Blow' is not likely to encounter. Ok, just my .02

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    Ladies & gentlemen 40 bob, and sgb. In the military tests about replacing the .38 long, they exerimented extensively on human bodies and live animals. They came to the concluson that to 'reliably' stop a human, the projectile would need to be 3 " in diameter in the range of pistol velocities 12 - 1300 fps. They included the 9m military cartridge and the 7.63 Mauser.

    Luger even submited 2 .45 acp Lugers for the test. Try to buy one today he he he

    Regarding cavity formation, it is valuable for possibly inducing hydraulic shock, which could be quickly fatal if it reached the heart or the brain, but not considered reliable.

    Don Jose de La Mancha

  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    If you do not take anecdotal data from the street you are only getting half the information.

    Tactical Life Defense Loads of Choice: The Word from the Street
    We need a newer "word from the street". That one is three years old.
    --Jason--

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