FBI Standards: Should we care? - Page 6

FBI Standards: Should we care?

This is a discussion on FBI Standards: Should we care? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by 40Bob If you do not take anecdotal data from the street you are only getting half the information. Tactical Life Defense Loads ...

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Thread: FBI Standards: Should we care?

  1. #76
    Ex Member Array Sneaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    If you do not take anecdotal data from the street you are only getting half the information.

    Tactical Life Defense Loads of Choice: The Word from the Street
    I'm not in church right now but I say AMEN to your post!


  2. #77
    Ex Member Array Sneaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    What matters is shooting until the threat ceases. Do that, and it wont matter where the statistics come from.
    Having seen a few shootings while in the Marine Corp-I totally agreed with this shooter! Your shooting skills are aprox. 90% of a shooting situation-while ammo is 10%! Stats sell ammo and ammo companies love stats!
    Bad Bob and sgb like this.

  3. #78
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    We need a newer "word from the street". That one is three years old.
    Why? Most of the loads I use are older designed bullets, even HST has been around longer than 3 years. Do you buy the latest craze in stopping power or go with what works?

  4. #79
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tayopo View Post
    Ladies & gentlemen 40 bob, and sgb. In the military tests about replacing the .38 long, they exerimented extensively on human bodies and live animals. They came to the concluson that to 'reliably' stop a human, the projectile would need to be 3 " in diameter in the range of pistol velocities 12 - 1300 fps. Regarding cavity formation, it is valuable for possibly inducing hydraulic shock, which could be quickly fatal if it reached the heart or the brain, but not considered reliable.
    With all due respect, those tests were conducted in 1904. Everything about the test has changed. The average male in the United States was 5'6" and weighed in around 140 lbs. Today the average male in the US is 5'10" and 190lbs. We are bigger, stronger, fatter and healthier than any time in our history. In 1904 the life expectancy was 47 years old today it is 76. In my opinion, the tests of 1904 (Thompson- LaGarde) are totally irrelevant today, with our Big-mac fueled bad guys.
    sgb and Tayopo like this.

  5. #80
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    Massad Ayoob says chances of survival are greater to shoot someone with a bigger round as bigger rounds have one shot stopping power compared to being hit 4-5 times from a smaller round and doing a wider spread of damage to accomplish the same task

  6. #81
    Member Array Tayopo's Avatar
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    HI 40Bob mi compadre; Cafe como siempre alla en mi patio. Yep, you are correct , However this means that we may now need a 4" projectile, no? ? he he

    Have you joined Fergie's NAFBPO yet? National Association of Former Border Patrol Officers --> http://nafbpo.org/

    News letter --> usbp-discussion@googlegroups.com


    Don Jose de La Mancha

  7. #82
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    Massad Ayoob says chances of survival are greater to shoot someone with a bigger round as bigger rounds have one shot stopping power compared to being hit 4-5 times from a smaller round and doing a wider spread of damage to accomplish the same task
    Link to where he says this, please.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  8. #83
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    40 Bob, I stabilized with the .357, and a Keith lead, semiwadcutter projectile of about 146 - 156 grain, and 14.5 grains of 2400 for approx 1350 - 1400 fps.

    I once experimented with casting the projectle with cigarette paper in the mould down to the full diam shoulder. In other words, the nose was split down to the full diaeter shoulder.

    At close range it gave the equiv of three projectiles, the main body acting as a full wad cutter, and the two nose pieces spining off in a radial, tangent distrupting tissue and cutting blood vessles even further in their own paths.

    At further distances where there isn't sufficent compound velocity / energy to tear them loose, they acted as a miniature radial saw cutting and slicing through any body materiel they passed by, due to the rotational effect.

    Where the velocity wasn't suffcient to tear them loose, to open them up, or when they were bridged with some materiel, they remained a full weight semiwad cutter.

    They were far more accurate than I could shoot, consistant hits to about 400 meters, occasionally to 600, but close enough in any event too convince a baddie to get the h---- out of there.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
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  9. #84
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
    Link to where he says this, please.
    This is from his book "in the gravest extreme" pg 104 top paragraph and I will give a direct quote:

    The bigger guns are the more humane: A .45 automatic will usually neutralize a man the first solid hit, and if the bullet has neither destroyed vital organs nor severed a major artery. And if he can be given proper care in time, he will survive. To be neutralized with a standard .38 , he’ll have to be killed instantly ,or hit with so many bullets that the blood loss and great tissue damage will almost certainly be irreparable.

  10. #85
    VIP Member Array Doghandler's Avatar
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    Lethal and humane. Gotta love it!

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tayopo View Post
    40 Bob, I stabilized with the .357, and a Keith lead, semiwadcutter projectile of about 146 - 156 grain, and 14.5 grains of 2400 for approx 1350 - 1400 fps.

    I once experimented with casting the projectle with cigarette paper in the mould down to the full diam shoulder. In other words, the nose was split down to the full diaeter shoulder.

    At close range it gave the equiv of three projectiles, the main body acting as a full wad cutter, and the two nose pieces spining off in a radial, tangent distrupting tissue and cutting blood vessles even further in their own paths.

    At further distances where there isn't sufficent compound velocity / energy to tear them loose, they acted as a miniature radial saw cutting and slicing through any body materiel they passed by, due to the rotational effect.

    Where the velocity wasn't suffcient to tear them loose, to open them up, or when they were bridged with some materiel, they remained a full weight semiwad cutter.

    They were far more accurate than I could shoot, consistant hits to about 400 meters, occasionally to 600, but close enough in any event too convince a baddie to get the h---- out of there.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    That is quite a load! From what I have seen, I think that at 1350-1400 FPS thing really start to happen. Is it a coincidence that this is at a supersonic level? You also have enough mass there to penetrate deeply.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doghandler View Post
    Lethal and humane. Gotta love it!
    Good stuff if you ever have to go before a jury.... no sir; I didn't want to shoot him with something smaller because he would suffer more

  13. #88
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    Feds & wikipedia ,,,, both change with the blowing wind,,,,

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    Why? Most of the loads I use are older designed bullets, even HST has been around longer than 3 years. Do you buy the latest craze in stopping power or go with what works?
    I go with what Dr. Roberts has vetted.
    --Jason--

  15. #90
    Senior Member Array IAm_Not_Lost's Avatar
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    The bigger guns are the more humane: A .45 automatic will usually neutralize a man the first solid hit, and if the bullet has neither destroyed vital organs nor severed a major artery. And if he can be given proper care in time, he will survive. To be neutralized with a standard .38 , he’ll have to be killed instantly ,or hit with so many bullets that the blood loss and great tissue damage will almost certainly be irreparable.
    - Massad Ayoob

    Maybe it's just me, but not only did that statement of Massad's not make a lot of literal grammatical sense, but it's too subjective for me. To sum up what he said; if you shoot a bad guy with a .45 your going to neutralize him with one solid shot, even if it isn't a critical wound. But if you shoot the bad guy with a normal .38 it will be necessary to kill them instantly (CNS shot I suppose) or shoot them so many darn times that they are more similar to a sieve than a body, in order to neutralize them. Maybe it's just me, but...that seems like large talk. Someone please correct me if I didn't interpret that blurb from his book correctly.
    "Brilliant. So now we got a huge guy theory, and a serial crusher theory. Top notch. What's your name?" - Paul Smecker

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