FBI Standards: Should we care?

This is a discussion on FBI Standards: Should we care? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by IAm_Not_Lost - Massad Ayoob Maybe it's just me, but not only did that statement of Massad's not make a lot of literal ...

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Thread: FBI Standards: Should we care?

  1. #91
    Member Array Blades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IAm_Not_Lost View Post
    - Massad Ayoob

    Maybe it's just me, but not only did that statement of Massad's not make a lot of literal grammatical sense, but it's too subjective for me. To sum up what he said; if you shoot a bad guy with a .45 your going to neutralize him with one solid shot, even if it isn't a critical wound. But if you shoot the bad guy with a normal .38 it will be necessary to kill them instantly (CNS shot I suppose) or shoot them so many darn times that they are more similar to a sieve than a body, in order to neutralize them. Maybe it's just me, but...that seems like large talk. Someone please correct me if I didn't interpret that blurb from his book correctly.
    I think your correct, he is smart, so maybe he wrote it that way for a reason. Who knows.
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  3. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by IAm_Not_Lost View Post
    - Massad Ayoob

    Maybe it's just me, but not only did that statement of Massad's not make a lot of literal grammatical sense, but it's too subjective for me. To sum up what he said; if you shoot a bad guy with a .45 your going to neutralize him with one solid shot, even if it isn't a critical wound. But if you shoot the bad guy with a normal .38 it will be necessary to kill them instantly (CNS shot I suppose) or shoot them so many darn times that they are more similar to a sieve than a body, in order to neutralize them. Maybe it's just me, but...that seems like large talk. Someone please correct me if I didn't interpret that blurb from his book correctly.
    Ayoob was preaching from the alter of Marshall & Sanow
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    I think your correct, he is smart, so maybe he wrote it that way for a reason. Who knows.

    The reference was made when a shop owner was asking about a gun and massad recommended a large caliper in which the shop owner said “I don’t want to kill them; I just want to stop them”

    It really does make sense if you give it some though. If someone gets shot with a 45 in the shoulder the bullet has enough ft lbs of energy to throw him off his feet and stop the threat thus ending the battle but if you take that same man and hit him in the shoulder with of a bullet like a .38 (.32, .25) the chances are less that it will stop him and he will keep on fighting in which you are going to have and shoot again. Over and over in some cases to stop the threat in which the perp has mutable gun shots, massive blood loss from mutable holes and more trauma thus causing a greater amount of shock and leading to a quicker death.

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    Good morning Ladies & Gentlemen: One point often brought up is literally bowling a person over, or as in the stupid movies, thrown several feet upon the impact of a pistol projectile.

    A simple way for you to check this out is to simply fill a small - 50# - sack full of sand, either suspend it, or stand it upright. Then shoot into it with your favorite BG killer load and observe just how little it moves. None at all, except fo a little jar at the point of impact.

    So if it can't even move a #50 sack of inert sand, how is it logically able to bowl over a 180 # aggressve attacker?

    Don Jose de La Mancha
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    What's interesting to me about this video is that he is claiming that after the Army switched back to the .45 SAA from the .38 S&W (not .38 Spl) revolver, the Army still had issues with Moro fighters not stopping despite hits from the .45. While I'd like to see some documentation to support this, it is entirely believeable, since we know of failures to stop with .45 pistol, as well as full-on rifle bullets, to this very day.

    I also like how he puts the capacity issue - "It allows you to stay in the fight longer."

    Nothing really new, but still a nice video. Thanks for posting it!
    I think the 45's he's talking about were the 45 Long Colt (New Service) revolvers the were reissued until stocks of the 45 ACP guns caught up with those that needed them.
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    G'afternon DonP, being AF. you can head to the sgt's mess for coffee with me.

    You are quite correct, while there are many that would take issue with us on the designation "Long Colt", it was definately used to differenate between it and the Shoefield round which was shorter. it was issued until they could come up a better round. This resulted in the 1907 tests which allowed the adoption of the 1911 Colt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donp326 View Post
    I think the 45's he's talking about were the 45 Long Colt (New Service) revolvers the were reissued until stocks of the 45 ACP guns caught up with those that needed them.
    They really did primarily issue the U.S. Model 1873 revolvers, trotting them out of mothballs, and supplying troops in the Philippines with them. These old .45 revolvers served through a lot of the Philippine campaign. The Colt New Service Model 1909 revolvers were rushed over there too but appeared relatively late. That's why its difficult to find a Model 1909 that doesn't have a brown patina to its surface finish. The humid climate was hard on firearms.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    I go with what Dr. Roberts has vetted.
    Cool, now if we only knew what he used to determine the effectiveness of these rounds. Fackler and Roberts were the ones who pushed the failed 147 grain subsonic also as the next greatest thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    Cool, now if we only knew what he used to determine the effectiveness of these rounds. Fackler and Roberts were the ones who pushed the failed 147 grain subsonic also as the next greatest thing.
    Can you share by posting a link? The 147gr HST, Gold Dot and Ranger T appear to be preforming quite well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    Cool, now if we only knew what he used to determine the effectiveness of these rounds. Fackler and Roberts were the ones who pushed the failed 147 grain subsonic also as the next greatest thing.
    Are you a member at "Lightfighter" or "m4carbine"? If so, ask him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    where the FBI tests fail is they need to test it on hoodies since you are more likely to have to shoot through a hoodie then denim these days
    wins thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    Can you share by posting a link? The 147gr HST, Gold Dot and Ranger T appear to be preforming quite well.
    It only took 20 years to design a bullet that worked at that velocity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    Are you a member at "Lightfighter" or "m4carbine"? If so, ask him.
    Don't get me wrong, his research is great, but he discounts loads that have a valid street cred because they do not meet the arbitrary standards that Fackler set into place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tayopo View Post
    G'afternon DonP, being AF. You can head to the sgt's mess for coffee with me.

    You are quite correct, while there are many that would take issue with us on the designation "Long Colt", it was definately used to differenate between it and the Shoefield round which was shorter. it was issued until they could come up a better round. This resulted in the 1907 tests which allowed the adoption of the 1911 Colt.

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    it appears I was "sort of correct" I forgot about the Shoefield round. Tyopo Don't know much about Mess detail but I can make coffee. My AF time was at Nellis AFB I worked in a secret area (NOT area 51) but in an area that shipped classified nuclear weapons to various bomber commands.
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  16. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    Don't get me wrong, his research is great, but he discounts loads that have a valid street cred because they do not meet the arbitrary standards that Fackler set into place.

    Do you know which rounds? If not, no worries.
    I thought he was using the FBI standards these days, but I'm not 100% sure.
    I have only read ammo recommendations/opinions/research/ideas online, but the person who mentioned Dr. Roberts' research to me, I trust. I may be wrong, and if I find better information, then I'll start linking to it, but for now I'll stick with Dr. Roberts while realizing the main thing is shot placement. An awesome bullet doesn't help if it misses.
    --Jason--

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