FBI Standards: Should we care? - Page 8

FBI Standards: Should we care?

This is a discussion on FBI Standards: Should we care? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Blades Do you know which rounds? If not, no worries. I thought he was using the FBI standards these days, but I'm ...

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Thread: FBI Standards: Should we care?

  1. #106
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    Do you know which rounds? If not, no worries.
    I thought he was using the FBI standards these days, but I'm not 100% sure.
    I have only read ammo recommendations/opinions/research/ideas online, but the person who mentioned Dr. Roberts' research to me, I trust. I may be wrong, and if I find better information, then I'll start linking to it, but for now I'll stick with Dr. Roberts while realizing the main thing is shot placement. An awesome bullet doesn't help if it misses.
    The 125 Grain full power 357 magnum and the 115 Grain +P+ 9mm.

    There is no reason to go with .357 mag in a J-frame, as the significantly larger muzzle blast and flash, and harsher recoil of the .357 Magnum does not result in substantially improved terminal performance compared to the more controllable .38 Special bullets when fired from 2” barrels."
    This what D.D.S. Roberts say's. I have to call BS because I have seen crony results and shootings off real people from 357 snubbies. A more honest statement might have said that for most shooters the 357 snub is not a good choice. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the ballistic properties because the 357 Magnum has almost 2 times the energy of the 38 special. Anytime you are into 'fight or flight mode" You are now the recipient of a massive dose of adrenaline - muzzle blast and recoil are no longer an issue.

    He is also talking about the difference in jello, really, jello is a good tool if used in the proper context. You should compare new loads to what the effective loads do in jello. But what D.D.S. Roberts is doing is showing bullets to perform well in an artificial medium and "predicting" that it will work well in a person, without have ever studied or experienced trauma medicine or seeing firsthand gunshot wounds, or interviewing participants.

    There are two sides to every coin.

    Fackler was run away from the FBI, the IWBA is gone, they lost their funding, if they were relevant the IWBA would still be here, not just one guy. Eugene Wolberg is another one who created a "scientific study" with cherry picked bullets attempting to prove the effectiveness of the 147 grain 9mm. They smeared Evan Marshall's work and offered nothing in return.

    We can keep beating this dead horse. We all have opinions, some are based on our perceptions and some are based on someone else's perception. What you have here is one group of people who have seen what happens on the street/field and what it can do in actual use and respect it. Then you have people that say, well it works in the lab so it must work in real life. It like the old line's, " Are you gonna believe your lying eyes or are you gonna believe me" or " It's not what it looks like".

    Since police get in more shootings than armed citizens, and police departments investigate meticulously and report facts related to street shootings is there any data from real life shootings that support jello as a viable prediction to bullet performance?
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  2. #107
    sgb
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    Ballistic Gelatin

    The most important question then becomes how we can measure a bullet's performance without actually shooting someone. The short answer to that question is a material called ballistic gelatin. It is basically plain gelatin with a specific bloom number that's been mixed to a specific concentration (10%) and stored at a specific temperature (38F). Once again, the Ammo FAQ includes information on the proper way to prepare ballistics gelatin. Properly prepared gelatin should be calibrated by firing a steel BB at a certain velocity; it should penetrate to a specific depth in order for the block to be useful.

    In the future, I'm planning on expanding this section significantly and provide lots of extra information about what ballistics gelatin does and doesn't do. This will take some time, so I'll make a brief summary to keep in mind when reading the rest of the material:

    Ballistics gelatin is NOT living tissue. It is a tissue SIMULANT modeling the density and elasticity of muscle tissue.
    Ballistics gelatin is a homogeneous material while the human body is not. There are some variations between the two.

    Even though ballistic gelatin has been in use for a while, it is still state-of-the-art. If a bullet performs well in ballistic gelatin, we can predict that it will perform well in actual shootings. While the data is not available to the average person, studies continue to monitor actual gunshot wounds and compare them to the bullet's performance in ballistic gelatin using modern Xray and other techniques. Even with these studies, ballistic gelatin continues to be the gold standard across the world for modeling a bullet's performance. Beware of any test data that doesn't use properly prepared and calibrated gelatin; using modeling clay, water-soaked newspapers, duct seal compound, soap, or any other material provides NO information about the bullet's actual performance so don't be fooled.

    Water is an acceptable substitute to measure the best-case scenario of bullet expansion since water's density is virtually identical to that of tissue. Water can't be used to predict the penetration depth; while there are some conversion factors that attempt to account for this discrepancy, I would not place a lot of weight on it.
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  3. #108
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    sgb,

    I think jello can be a valuable tool. But we must not discount what we cannot quantify. Lack of information does not prove a negative.

  4. #109
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    Morning Bob, yer coffee. You asked --? that support jello as a viable prediction to bullet performance?
    ______________

    Yep, it is just sitting there quivering in anticipation of being shot, sorta like me..

    Apol. for the levity, but, there are NO identical cases of humans being shot . One can say they were males of 180# of such & such height, yet their body structure may be completely different, A projectile will act differently between body fat and lean hard muscle, between strong bone and weak, calcium, deprived bone, distance and clothing worn, mental attitude, and on, and on.

    In the Philippine campaign of the 1800's, the are cases of little Philippines - 125 , 130 # - being hit 5, 6 times in the breast with the .38 round nosed projectile, and still fighting and surviving. Even the .45 failed to stop many while under the influence of the Juramantado.

    This is a condition where they tightly bound up their arms and legs with reeds restricting the blood flow and consequently blood lose, then taking drugs with the intention of killing as many Christians as possible before being killed themselves. They usually had a kris (machete) in both hands and happily chopped up any Christians they met..

    Even the Krag 30 40 failed to stop them.

    Some of the world wise men made full wadcutters of the .38's with a tremendous improvement.

    I used the same tecnique when I was exploring & living off the jungles for 6 months in Quintana Roo looking for lost Mayan ruins. My partner and I used 4" barreled .22 pistols for small game and marginal defense. The Super X hollow points just didn't develop enough velocitity for the bullets to expand and we lost many a dinner runing away in the jungle.

    So I made full wadcutters of them with our machete sharpening file. Before we would get one bird for every three shots, after 2 birds for every three shots.


    If I could do it again, I would use the old Hi Standard military model HD, I believe, with the external hammer and a 6" barrel and suppressor.




    Don Jose de La Mancha
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  5. #110
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
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    Tayopo,

    Muy amigo mio, Mucho gracias, perro, la cosa es......


    That is precisely why I want to prepare for the worst possible case. I stand by my assessment that I will carry the most powerful handgun I can conceal and shoot well. As with the tragic death of Trooper Mark Coates, he hit the BG with 4 357 Magnum 145 STHP's, recognized as effective rounds, but they did not stop his murderer. A handgun has always been a last ditch defensive weapon, and a compromise. I also believe that magnum cartridges bridge the gap between service calibers and rifles. The only reason revolvers became unpopular with LE was the perceived disparity of firepower. I think that we would have been better served to spend that money training our police to hit better than to give them more bullets to miss with.

    If I expected trouble I would carry a rifle, and have friends along with rifles too. We all understand that a self defense shooting is the last thing we want to do, it is a last resort. Looking at it that way, do we leave anything to chance?

  6. #111
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    40Bob;Hola mi compadre, I agree, we need some standard to compare with. At the time my father had some hounds and he bought horse meat in large pieces. The horse meat was my testing lab and the doggies had pretenderized meat.

    Interesting point is the original .375 H&H magnum had an unparalleled reputation for one shot stoppers on dangerous game. In reponse to demands, they upped the basic velocity and the round promptly lost it's one shot capacity even though it packed far more energy.

    Don Jose de La Mancha

    p.s. i have never run out of ammo in a revolver.

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tayopo View Post
    40Bob;Hola mi compadre, I agree, we need some standard to compare with. At the time my father had some hounds and he bought horse meat in large pieces. The horse meat was my testing lab and the doggies had pretenderized meat.

    Interesting point is the original .375 H&H magnum had an unparalleled reputation for one shot stoppers on dangerous game. In reponse to demands, they upped the basic velocity and the round promptly lost it's one shot capacity even though it packed far more energy.

    Don Jose de La Mancha

    p.s. i have never run out of ammo in a revolver.

    Tayopo: What was the original .357 H&H magnum & what was its velocity?
    Thank-you for your post!

  8. #113
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    Please provide candid advice on .38cal, 9mm, and 45ACP ammo

    A well written article on basic ballistics. I have 3 handguns--a Charter Arms Undercover .38 Special, a Glock 26 (extended grip +1) and a Glock 30 (standard magazine).

    My initial gun purchase was the Glock 26--as a former copper, it was decent for concealed carry and off-duty. I purchased a Glock 30 for a bit more "knock down" at a crazy price but I find it to be a bit heavy for daily carry and more for home defense out outdoors wilderness encounters. I recently inherited at Charter Arms Undercover .38 SPL.

    I had been using CorBon (115 or 124 gr) in my 9mm due to the ballistic "knock down" of that of a .357 round (per FBI testing standards). Currently, I do not have CorBon in either Glocks, rather Federal Personal Defense Hydrashock at 124/7? gr and 230 gr respectively.

    With my newly acquired .38 SPL, what am I to use? Along with my 9mm and 45? I know each caliber has different "stopping" characteristics and the brand of ammo may not be best-suited for each handgun. I have read countless articles (from FBI-gathered "data" that there's little difference due to manufacturer competition--a bit on penetration depth and overall expansion size).

    I am seeking advice on which ammo to best use for each caliber--manufacturer, type, and grain. I am more prone to carrying my Charter Arms .38SPL during the summer (wearing loosing elastic waistband shorts vs. jeans with a solid belt--more suited for the Glocks as a personal comfort). Furthermore, I need to consider the practicality of firepower vs firearm wight while wearing dress slacks (in an ankle holster). The FBI Ballistics testing suggests rounds as "meeting the standard" but are they adequately giving us the correct information on "stopping power" and "infliction of damage?" We all know the government will not publish data that equates to what federal agencies carry or give us the inside scoop for the upper hand. There are "bleeding rounds" out there which lack penetration but cause massive internal bleeding for trauma docs and as such are purely "deadly" since they can't stop the bleeding for shrapnel.

    What I am asking is for best round in the summer attire and dress slacks for the .38SPL, the winter round for the 9mm and the home defense for the .45ACP.

    Thanks,

    CCWBrett

    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    this is from wikipedia:
    According to Dr. Martin Fackler and the International Wound Ballistics Association (IWBA), between 12.5 and 14 inches (318 and 356 mm) of penetration in calibrated tissue simulant is optimal performance for a bullet which is meant to be used defensively, against a human adversary. They also believe that penetration is one of the most important factors when choosing a bullet (and that the number one factor is shot placement). If the bullet penetrates less than their guidelines, it is inadequate, and if it penetrates more, it is still satisfactory though not optimal. The FBI's penetration requirement is very similar at 12 to 18 inches (305 to 457 mm).

    A penetration depth of 12.5 to 14 inches (318 and 356 mm) may seem excessive, but a bullet sheds velocity—and crushes a narrower hole—as it penetrates deeper, while losing velocity, so the bullet might be crushing a very small amount of tissue (simulating an "ice pick" injury) during its last two or three inches of travel, giving only between 9.5 and 12 inches of effective wide-area penetration. Also, skin is elastic and tough enough to cause a bullet to be retained in the body, even if the bullet had a relatively high velocity when it hit the skin. About 250 ft/s (76 m/s) velocity is required for an expanded hollow point bullet to puncture skin 50% of the time.

    The IWBA's and FBI's penetration guidelines are to ensure that the bullet can reach a vital structure from most angles, while retaining enough velocity to generate a large diameter hole through tissue. An extreme example where penetration would be important is if the bullet first had to enter and then exit an outstretched arm before impacting the torso. A bullet with low penetration might embed itself in the arm whereas a higher penetrating bullet would penetrate the arm then enter the thorax where it would have a chance of hitting a vital organ.

    Stopping power - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    just an FYI S&W worked with the FBI to create the .40 cal

  9. #114
    Member Array Tayopo's Avatar
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    High sneaky sorry for the delay. The '.375' H&H magnum was considered as a true one shot stopping rifle for dangerous animals. It orig was 2600 fps, but when Weqtherby, and others, stepped it up 3000+ it some how lost it's magical touch. Something about it's rate of transference of inpact energy, due to calibre and velocity..

    Don Jose de La Mancha

  10. #115
    sgb
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCWbrett View Post
    What I am asking is for best round in the summer attire and dress slacks for the .38SPL, the winter round for the 9mm and the home defense for the .45ACP.

    Thanks,

    CCWBrett
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    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

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  11. #116
    Member Array Tayopo's Avatar
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    Hola SGB: A semi or full wad cutter in 150 + grn, @ 900 - 1000 fps range .

    Don Jose de La Mancha

  12. #117
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    I like the way you think, Tayopo.

    Good ol' +P 158 grain SWCs solve a lot of dithering over questions concerning what to stoke one's .38 Special revolver with.

    The .375 H&H Magnum is a uniquely fine cartridge too. A .375 H&H Magnum is the most potent rifle kept around here. Though there's no purpose in using it for Texas whitetails, it's fun to handload and experiment with. Hey, if dinosaurs make a come-back I'm ready for 'em.
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  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by CCWbrett View Post
    A well written article on basic ballistics. I have 3 handguns--a Charter Arms Undercover .38 Special, a Glock 26 (extended grip +1) and a Glock 30 (standard magazine).


    CCWBrett
    Welcome to the forum "CCWBrett".

    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    +1 on the article.
    --Jason--

  14. #119
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    I won't say much besides just go look at real world facts.

    ballistics, penetration, wound cavity blah blah blah

    9mm has been working very well in our army for how long now? 9mm worked well in WWII too right?

    and didn't our .45 do an excellent job?

    how's that little varmint round working out in our military that has seen several wars now?

    how did the five seven do in Ft hood tht everyone talks down to?

    what did the 9mm do to treyvon with one bulet?

    I rest my case.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by taseal View Post
    I won't say much besides just go look at real world facts.

    ballistics, penetration, wound cavity blah blah blah

    9mm has been working very well in our army for how long now? 9mm worked well in WWII too right?

    and didn't our .45 do an excellent job?

    how's that little varmint round working out in our military that has seen several wars now?

    how did the five seven do in Ft hood tht everyone talks down to?

    what did the 9mm do to treyvon with one bulet?

    I rest my case.

    How is the 9mm "working very well" for the Army? According to whom?

    There is always going to be an exception: the bear killed with a single .22, the person who takes 30 bullets but keeps going -- yadda, yadda, yadda.
    But with the "FBI Standards" we have bullets designed and tested to a specific standard(or "theory") of what is required to stop a threat as quickly as possible, with proper shot placement. It might only be a slight advantage compared to other bullets designs, but I want every advantage possible.
    --Jason--

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