FBI Standards: Should we care?

This is a discussion on FBI Standards: Should we care? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; True that, Blades. But, a guy could "chase his tail" endlessly trying to keep up with every perceived advantage marketed....

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Thread: FBI Standards: Should we care?

  1. #121
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    True that, Blades. But, a guy could "chase his tail" endlessly trying to keep up with every perceived advantage marketed.
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  3. #122
    Member Array Blades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    True that, Blades. But, a guy could "chase his tail" endlessly trying to keep up with every perceived advantage marketed.
    Good point, that is why I appreciate the work Dr. Roberts has been doing, it gives me something to use besides gun magazines, internet commando's, and hearsay. People I respect and trust vouch for Dr. Roberts, which is all I need.
    --Jason--

  4. #123
    Senior Member Array taseal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    How is the 9mm "working very well" for the Army? According to whom?

    There is always going to be an exception: the bear killed with a single .22, the person who takes 30 bullets but keeps going -- yadda, yadda, yadda.
    But with the "FBI Standards" we have bullets designed and tested to a specific standard(or "theory") of what is required to stop a threat as quickly as possible, with proper shot placement. It might only be a slight advantage compared to other bullets designs, but I want every advantage possible.
    according to me, and the others that used it in combat overseas. I never saw one person complain how it doesn't put the guy down. and as you might know, we do use FMJ. feel free to PM me for stories of it in action killing bad guys

    also the gemans in WWII... worked well for them too.

    not to mention my LEO buddy who had to put someone down with a knife charging at him. he used +p+ 127gr rangers.

    like I said, mine are real world facts. yours are food gelatin, and numbers.

    all it takes is one shot to hit the right place. with more ammo, you got more chances.

    your chance of every advantage, and mine are different. I'm a quantity guy with quality ammo. some are caliber with quality.

    in the end, I assure everyone who uses a 9mm are backed by the army's experience with the round. and when I saw it works very well, I say it for myself and many many other combat soldiers that have used it in the field.

    I respect what everyone carries, and as long as one bullet hits the right spot, you're good to go
    Last edited by taseal; August 3rd, 2012 at 09:19 AM.

  5. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by taseal View Post
    according to me, and the others that used it in combat overseas. I never saw one person complain how it doesn't put the guy down. and as you might know, we do use FMJ. feel free to PM me for stories of it in action killing bad guys

    also the gemans in WWII... worked well for them too.

    not to mention my LEO buddy who had to put someone down with a knife charging at him. he used +p+ 127gr rangers.

    like I said, mine are real world facts. yours are food gelatin, and numbers.

    all it takes is one shot to hit the right place. with more ammo, you got more chances.

    your chance of every advantage, and mine are different. I'm a quantity guy with quality ammo. some are caliber with quality.

    in the end, I assure everyone who uses a 9mm are backed by the army's experience with the round. and when I saw it works very well, I say it for myself and many many other combat soldiers that have used it in the field.

    I respect what everyone carries, and as long as one bullet hits the right spot, you're good to go

    While everything you've said is true it's because the critical portion of the equation is proper bullet placement with adequate penetration, which 9mm ball ammo is capable of. Also true is that larger bullets and expanding bullets destroy more tissue which increases the effectiveness of the hit.

    Ballistic gelatin isn't food gelatin as you've erroneously stated. Ballistic gelatin simulates human flesh and while not perfect it's pretty dang good at predicting which rounds will be the most effective on the street. Not all bullets are created equal.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

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  6. #125
    Senior Member Array JohnLeVick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    I hear a lot about the FBI minimum penetration being 12"s, the 4 layers of denim thing, and all this other data they use and a lot of people look at it as the "gospel" of ballistics. My question is this: Since when has ANY government agency done anything the private sector doesn't do better?

    I'd trust the guys at Hornady (who have to turn a profit) to give me a product that works vs. using FBI specs to choose my SD rounds. And Hornady is just an example, ANY bullet manufacturer probably does more and better testing than the FBI ever dreamed.

    So I ask, do you take the FBI specs into account when choosing a bullet to stake your life on? Or do you choose another way?
    In general, no, primarily because the FBI standards are heavily weighted in favor of penetration, both of barriers and of tissue, pre- and post- barrier penetration. While I think the standards are worth reviewing, as is most any source of knowledge, they never have and never will be what I use to decide what I will or won't carry. Fackler screwed the pooch when he got caught faking results when he "demonstrated" that the post in Hydra-Shok bullets had no effect (it does, and he got sued), so I lost most of my respect for his work. That, however, does not mean all his work was bad. Evans and Marshall have been taken to task for mistakes in statistical analyses and also for supposedly being somehow dishonest in their published work, but even it that were true, that does not mean that every conclusion they reached is wrong, just as is true with Fackler. As to testing done by ammo manufacturers, just because they are trying to sell ammo doesn't mean that all their work is skewed, either. The real-world results we're seeing from Speer's 135gr. Gold Dot +P .38 load is a case in point.

    I think we all make mistakes when we take one writer's, trainer's or manufacturer's word as gospel and criticize and/or ignore everyone else's work. None of us are all right or all wrong, but we all agree (don't we?) that bullet placement is the most important variable, among an almost limitless number of variables. Comparative studies do have value, however.

    For myself, in choosing carry ammo, I do my own water testing, and also take into consideration what I've seen work well on animals, versus what I've seen fail. Additionally, maybe as "Job One," I make sure that the ammo works 100% reliably and is reasonably accurate in whatever gun in which it is being used. I also consider the work done by everyone whose studies I've read, and what seems to be working well for LE these days.

    As humans tend to be, we all seem to have a tendency to look for the "One True Way" and easy answers with which to get us there. After all, we can't be confused by the facts if we know the One Answer, right? The happy news is that today we have MANY wonderful new (and some not-so-new) bullet designs and ammunition configurations that are excellent choices for carry, so we can still be well-protected without having to know the One True Way, and we can rest easy, knowing that we can conserve all that mental energy we've been wasting worrying about having the perfect load with which to hammer miscreants, and rather, use it to train ourselves better.
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  7. #126
    Member Array Tayopo's Avatar
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    Gentlemen, may I remind yoo that the seals, Marine spec forces etc are going back to the ,45 semi? This after long usage of the 9 mm.

    --->Elite Marine Corps units to field new pistols - Marine Corps News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Marine Corps Times

    Don Jose de La Mancha

  8. #127
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    bmcgilvray: Hola my friend. The .375 H&H down loaded to the old 38 55 -- series velocity, is just 'fine for a meat hunting' combination. And the lead is certainly cheaper than jacketed projectiles.

  9. #128
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    Hola sarge (donp326), I was referring to the peons in the sgt's mess making coffee for us, course heheh. Any secrets that you wanna share that I can peddle off? snicker

    Don Jose de La Mancha

  10. #129
    Member Array Blades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taseal View Post
    according to me, and the others that used it in combat overseas. I never saw one person complain how it doesn't put the guy down. and as you might know, we do use FMJ. feel free to PM me for stories of it in action killing bad guys

    also the gemans in WWII... worked well for them too.

    not to mention my LEO buddy who had to put someone down with a knife charging at him. he used +p+ 127gr rangers.

    like I said, mine are real world facts. yours are food gelatin, and numbers.

    all it takes is one shot to hit the right place. with more ammo, you got more chances.

    your chance of every advantage, and mine are different. I'm a quantity guy with quality ammo. some are caliber with quality.

    in the end, I assure everyone who uses a 9mm are backed by the army's experience with the round. and when I saw it works very well, I say it for myself and many many other combat soldiers that have used it in the field.

    I respect what everyone carries, and as long as one bullet hits the right spot, you're good to go

    I won't PM you, I imagine you have information when the 9mm worked great, and somebody else will have information where the 9mm failed-- your correct, the main thing will always be shot placement.

    I think Dr. Roberts basis' his information on "real-world" and ballistic gelatin. Even with what Dr. Roberts has posted, and he also has stated he is moving to 9mm and away from .45(as plenty of other knowledgeable people are doing), I plan to stay with my Glock 30sf for now. I just can't put 100% faith in any hollowpoint expanding every time. If my bullet doesn't expand for whatever reason, then it is a .45acp ball, which hopefully I will have used proper shot placement and the threat will have stopped.
    --Jason--

  11. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    I won't PM you, I imagine you have information when the 9mm worked great, and somebody else will have information where the 9mm failed-- your correct, the main thing will always be shot placement.

    I think Dr. Roberts basis' his information on "real-world" and ballistic gelatin. Even with what Dr. Roberts has posted, and he also has stated he is moving to 9mm and away from .45(as plenty of other knowledgeable people are doing), I plan to stay with my Glock 30sf for now. I just can't put 100% faith in any hollowpoint expanding every time. If my bullet doesn't expand for whatever reason, then it is a .45acp ball, which hopefully I will have used proper shot placement and the threat will have stopped.
    I am a former Marine Corp Veteran who has witnessed the .45 caliber reliably stop many a foe-including some personnel confrontations of my own using the 45 caliber in stopping a few violent situations!

    As far as the 9mm-I have witnessed the 9mm work most of the time stopping a violent foe---But not as consistantly as the 45 caliber!
    As with all calibers you will hear horror stories of needing 5-10 rounds to stop a foe ---but from first hand active duty use I will take the .45 any day of the week and twice on Sundays!
    Last edited by Sneaky; August 3rd, 2012 at 06:20 PM.
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  12. #131
    Member Array Tayopo's Avatar
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    HI sneaky, a jarhead with brains?? unusual hehhehe. I'll back your statement everytime my friend. Coffee \_/P \_/P

    Don Jose de La Mancha

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    I don't trust FBI standards...but not because I'm paranoid. They're assuming that their suspect will be at the least wearing a whole crapload of denim or body armor. Most morons who attack you on the street, in your house, dairy queen etc, they're only going to be wearing a hoodie, a tilted hat and their pants are probably falling down. I use whatever I can deem economical. If I'm carrying 9mm luger or .40S&W I'll take the cheapest box of anything I can get. If I'm being lazy and carrying my lil buddy .22, I load it up with 36 gr CCI minimags or velocitors. Either way, you guys are right, shot placement is key. I don't care WHO you are, if somebody puts ten rounds of .22, .25., .32 or whatever in your stomach, you're going down.

  14. #133
    Member Array Blades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tricolordad View Post
    I don't trust FBI standards...but not because I'm paranoid. They're assuming that their suspect will be at the least wearing a whole crapload of denim or body armor. Most morons who attack you on the street, in your house, dairy queen etc, they're only going to be wearing a hoodie, a tilted hat and their pants are probably falling down. I use whatever I can deem economical. If I'm carrying 9mm luger or .40S&W I'll take the cheapest box of anything I can get. If I'm being lazy and carrying my lil buddy .22, I load it up with 36 gr CCI minimags or velocitors. Either way, you guys are right, shot placement is key. I don't care WHO you are, if somebody puts ten rounds of .22, .25., .32 or whatever in your stomach, you're going down.
    I think the four layers of denim represent clothes of any kind. I don't think the FBI expects all suspects to be wearing denim.

    I think your right, ten rounds of .22 in your stomach will cause you to go down, but how long will it take? Ten minutes? Two hours?
    --Jason--

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    Ex Member Array Sneaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tayopo View Post
    HI sneaky, a jarhead with brains?? unusual hehhehe. I'll back your statement everytime my friend. Coffee \_/P \_/P

    Don Jose de La Mancha
    A Marine With Brains -now that's rare!

    I must travel The Path Less Traveled!

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    P.S. Thanks for the Coffee!

  16. #135
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    I think you should use the standards as a guideline. I don't want to use the word benchmark but I will. Don't take it literally please. Looking at the test results in ballistac gel you can get a good idea of what does what. You should make your call as to what caliber you want to carry and what pistol/wheelgun you shoot well using the tests as information. Just one part of the process.You should do your due dillagence and research what you are interested in loading in your EDC[s] From a purely obective point of view- a 6' 1" 150lb person was stopped with one shot from a 9mm to the chest.
    It depends on what kind of situation you're dealing with.

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