As you say, Airborn Falcon.
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As you say, Airborn Falcon.
I got no problem with Critical Duty, Defense, Zombie, whatever. I understand some of the design features in the Critical Duty/Defense loads and it makes sense.
What I choose to carry is when a round establishes a proven track record in real shooting events. I've shot a few boxes of Critical Defense in 9mm and was pretty impressed at the shooting range a far as how it functions in my guns and the accuracy. However, I'm not carrying it yet. For now I stay with Federal HST's, Speer Gold Dots, Winchester Ranger-T's and Remington Golden Saber because of an established track record in actual shootings.
There are others out there with established track records as well, but I've always been able to find the above rounds.
One day I may end up using Critical Defense or Critical Duty as a carry round for defense. It just hasn't met an established track record as of yet. The sooner it does, the sooner I'll consider it.
Classic Catch 22 ... and I agree, although modern gel tests give us a good indication of how a certain pill will perform in a real world environment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bark'n
I carried 9mm ball, FMJ on active duty of course, and then I carried 40 S&W Gold Dots for probably twelve to fourteen years afterwards once no longer restricted by the antiquated Hague Convention restraints. Even in the private world and carrying 40, I still kept one high cap of ball fmj on my belt, at the 7-8 o'clock position on my left hip - just in case I needed hard barrier penetration to flush whatever - the one we usually worried about the most was car glass, or occasionally car doors or other light to medium thickness hasty barriers ... and that was always a last resort, if we we not up-armed with carbines and were forced to resort to our sidearms. Sometimes your sidearm is just handier - it's always there.
The holy grail has always been a pill that penetrates glass, car doors, plywood, sheetrock, etc., and then expands once it passes through the barrier and into soft tissue. 12-15 inches of penetration once it passes through the barrier, that's the key. And it's not that it will actually penetrate that deeply into a live target - rather 12-15 inches of ballistic gel penetration translates into 8-12 inches of penetration in a real world scenario - the allows for bone, cell phones, wallets, heavy leather clothing, etc. Penetration AND expansion because, as we all know that wound cavity is key - the whole hydrostatic shock element.
I switched over to 357 SIG a few years ago when Colonel Johnson, (Jesse, of Cochise), allowed us to make the switch, even encouraged us ... but Jesse was always the point man for things like that in the industry - he'd let his guys carry AKs and 1911s as well - whatever worked for the particular man.
357 SIG seemed to fit the bill - and I still carry it today out of a P229. It is, for the time being at least, the almost-perfect semi-auto cartridge. (10mm is perfect but not practical for most.) The further beauty of carrying in 357 SIG is that it is available in HST ... and I've been carrying HST almost since the first day they sent it to us to put through its paces. It is very good on windshields and auto metal - and it still gives decent penetration and expansion on any soft tissue behind the barrier .... but HST is not perfect in that regard. It has some issues. HST tends to deform badly through glass and auto metal. Even Gold Dot it better in that regard and ball fmj was probably the best for years. (Which goes back to packing the spare mag of ball fmj just in case.)
There are a lot of us hoping that this new Critical Duty recipe might be the solution to the problem. The general buying civilian public has been sold the demin/gel test bill of goods when, in fact, denim is very very rarely the first material your pill will come in contact with once it leaves the barrel of your sidearm, (unless you are prone to impacting two or three feet low of your point of aim). And while 80% of the time the only material that will need to be penetrated is a t-shirt or a sweatshirt ... it's the other 20% of the time that will get you in trouble - Matrix-Platt in Miami changed everything in that regard where handguns are concerned.
This new Critical Duty ammo has potential in that regard and I too am hoping that it gets the chance to be put through its paces. In the meantime, Bark'n, thank you for the well-structured, concise and unbiased reply without all of the nonsense. It is appreciated.
BTW, are you excited about Mizzou coming into the SEC this Fall? I met a few guys from Mizzou when I was coming through Napoli last year who lived in Columbia, MO ... just spoke with them the other day and they are planning to make the trip to this Columbia for the game this fall.
Airborne, good responses overall but I think some of them were made with a winked eye by posters. I find anything that the ammo makers provide after doing all that R&D is good for many but never for everyone. I liked the video and it told the story as to what they recommend the duty round for. I get that. I understand each to their own. Like Chevy verses Ford...
Thanks for posting the vid. I learned something from it as well as some of the comments (both sides).
BTW, I love my XDM compact 9... Thanks for that post as well...
Consumerism
Hornady is just out there trying to make a buck through modern innovation and marketing. Zombie Max shows that they are willing to connect with popular culture in their marketing scheme. Like it or not, like the product or not, this is how a consumerist culture works.
Here's my take on it. While it would take a pretty serious advancement to get me to replace my 147g Federal HST's with something else I appreciate any company trying to advance the effectiveness of a given round. That being said I don't understand why so many people are so hostile towards this?
Good take Rollo. EXACTLY my chain of thought - exactly. They are being proactive and innovative in an effort to further advance our sport, our interest in firearms and the ammo we feed our firearms. It is the beautiful thing about the industry here in America and, ammo-wise at least, only the Germans can compete with us in that regard. Thank the good Lord for companies willing to get out there and keep it fresh and new.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rollo
As far as these people that are so hostile, to the idea shown in the video, are concerned - I suspect it is multi-layered and pathologically psychological with one or two of these posers ... but the bottom line is that haters gonna hate. It's a darn shame though, that this little group of a couple of members have run roughshod on so many other members - as I went back and reviewd a few more of their posts, they seem to have a history of patronizing and condescending members, especially some of the newer members, from time to time. I believe they made the mistake, or at least bmc did, of not noticing how long I've been around but rather just looking at my post count and assuming I was a cherry when he stepped into this thread and tried blowing-it-up right out of the chute. His one buddy followed him into the muck, but they've done the double-team before it appears. Hopefully they will now allow us to discuss this new technology in a more professional, objective manner than they originally intended to allow us to do when this thread first appeared.
I am going to post another video of what I understand Hornady is shooting for (pardon the pun) with the new bullets. This is the Holy Grail I typed-of earlier (see first two minutes):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4p818_rgEU
Hi Airborn Falcon;
We'll be happy for you to discuss your regard for this product in a professional, objective manner whenever you are ready to begin. We hope you're through with making incorrect assumptions regarding forum members' alleged mistakes and their own personal histories, experiences, or observations. We'll be happy to get beyond your name-calling. It's also hoped that you're done with squashing alternative opinions or any debate on the topic that doesn't agree with your enthusiasm for the subject. There's nothing wrong with enthusiasm. There's nothing wrong with skepticism about claims about products, or testing, or marketing methods. I'm as free to post my opinion about a subject as you are. You might bear that in mind.
As far as hostility exhibited, please reread your own posts and make certain you aren't projecting.
What I love about conversations like this is its all options even when a video is presented. For one I don't think hornady is going to put out a bullet that was not tested. The co has been making bullets for a long time and I don’t see the selling subpar defense ammo.
If you hike HST ammo great and if you like zombie max that’s good too but remember this that people are shot every day with unknown store bought stuff and die. What does this tell us; that you don’t have to have the best of the best of the best to achieve your goal … you just have to be better than the other guy.
P.S. I have a box of zombie max just because it looks good and it has good test results
this just popped up on the radar screen so I though I would post it. looks like everyone is getting on the self defense band wagon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdxDdEunAjQ&feature=g-all-u
Here is a test (not the best) video but just a comparison. What I love about this guy is just because that piece of meat has some bullet holes in it he cooks and eats it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVJ-A8_zyfk
The fellow's probably a deer hunter and has already been eating meat that's had bullet holes in it.
I hope I don't sound too naive here, but everyone raves about how great HST is and all...but has anyone tried to buy it lately? I have been trying to buy 9mm 147gr HST and no one will sell it. I don't understand where everyone is buying it from that they love it so much.
I'm lucky in that a local police supply store carries it.
Local guy here bought a pretty good lot and is selling it. He sells online also, but I don't know what his shipping is: Tactical Defense Solutions LLC - Specializing In High Quality Supplies For The Critical Shooter He had HST 147g last time I was there (though he has less now :wink:).Quote:
Originally Posted by PI9
Critical Duty looks to be what Critical Defense should have been all along. http://s6.tinypic.com/2vufsjr_th.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...f/P1000902.jpg
Do you really think you'll have time to swap mags?