Now I know how Steve Rodgers felt when he came out of the ice...

This is a discussion on Now I know how Steve Rodgers felt when he came out of the ice... within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I've just recently rekindled an interest in defensive ammunition. Up until about fifteen years or so ago, I was well versed on state of the ...

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Thread: Now I know how Steve Rodgers felt when he came out of the ice...

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    Member Array BloodyBucket's Avatar
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    Now I know how Steve Rodgers felt when he came out of the ice...

    I've just recently rekindled an interest in defensive ammunition. Up until about fifteen years or so ago, I was well versed on state of the art.

    Since then...not so much at all. The trips to the range in the interim have all been hardball affairs, or now and then running some rounds of HP stuff because it was on hand or to re-affirm functioning with a favorite load.

    A lot has happened since then. For one thing, I used to get my info from books and magazines. Robust forums dedicated to defensive carry and ammo? Heck, there weren't even blazing fast 56K modems yet.

    So, now that I've done a little poking around after emerging from this informational slumber, I find:

    • Light and fast is out
    • Heavy stuff that works after hitting lots of denim is in
    • Frangible ammo? Hah!
    • The 158 gr LSWC in a .38 snub still gets respect
    • Some big names have fallen from grace. Silvertip, Hydra-Shok, the "Flying Ashtray"
    • Some of the Gospel we read back then was pretty...doubtful


    So, that Black Talon .45, 9BP, .380 Glaser, and other "vintage" ammo that I've got kicking around...is it range fodder, museum stuff or something else? Has defensive pistol ammo really changed that much in the last couple decades? Do you think today's stuff will be eclipsed ten or twenty years in the future?

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    I'm still in the dark ages. For the infrequent times I tote a 9mm for concealed carry I use old supplies of Black Talon. There probably are better heavy-weight 9mm loadings available today but the Black Talon seems decent.

    Self-contained metallic cartridges are a mature technology but we'll probably see incremental improvements that might add up to a real change in 10 or 20 years. I just finished reading about caseless firearms development in an article on the Marine Corps Times site. That could be the next "big thing."

    Link: Caseless ammo could cut 25 lbs. from gear - Marine Corps News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Marine Corps Times

    A lot of the gospel we read back then was pretty doubtful and everything placed in current internet forums should be taken with a grain of salt as well.

    Including this post.
    No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

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    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    Black Talon is still around (I've been told) as SXT.

    .380 Glaser - range ammo

    What's 9BP? (sorrrry)

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    I wouldn't dismiss Hydra-Shok... it's not the newest but it's far from old-fashioned!

    Ned - 9BP is the classic Federal 9mm 115 gr JHP round that was the benchmark "it feeds and it works" round for probably 20 years, starting early in the age of "wondernines."
    Smitty
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    Member Array BloodyBucket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    Black Talon is still around (I've been told) as SXT.

    .380 Glaser - range ammo

    What's 9BP? (sorrrry)
    Well, I've read a little and supposedly some jokers think SXT stands for Same eXact Thing as the Black Talon, but it's been improved some.

    I think I got the Glasers as a gimme in a trade. No loss, might shoot some milk jugs with 'em for old time's sake.

    The Federal 9BP was the load for the 9mm back in the day. It's a 115 GR JHP going about 1180 FPS. If my recent reading is correct, it's still offered in the Federal "Classic" line. Typical of the light 'n fast bullets that were the rage then.

    One nice thing about that round, it feeds great in my only current 9MM pistol, a Browning Hi Power clone from Hungary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    I'm still in the dark ages. For the infrequent times I tote a 9mm for concealed carry I use old supplies of Black Talon. There probably are better heavy-weight 9mm loadings available today but the Black Talon seems decent.

    Self-contained metallic cartridges are a mature technology but we'll probably see incremental improvements that might add up to a real change in 10 or 20 years. I just finished reading about caseless firearms development in an article on the Marine Corps Times site. That could be the next "big thing."

    Link: Caseless ammo could cut 25 lbs. from gear - Marine Corps News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Marine Corps Times A lot of the gospel we read back then was pretty doubtful and everything placed in current internet forums should be taken with a grain of salt as well.

    Including this post.
    Actually caseless ammo is OLD (to some people) technology.

    Airborne Combat Engineer: The Daisy V/L caseless .22
    bmcgilvray likes this.
    When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
    "Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way."

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    Yeah, I remember when the little Daisy rifle curiosity was new. As a young teen I thought about giving one a try.

    Along about that same time one of the first couple of years' Guns & Ammo Annuals had a feature about military caseless ammo developments. What was that? 40+ years ago? I still have the annuals around here someplace.
    No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

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    Opened your link msgt/ret. Didn't realize the Daisy V/L dated to 1962. I thought I remembered that it came along in about '68 or '69.
    No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    Opened your link msgt/ret. Didn't realize the Daisy V/L dated to 1962. I thought I remembered that it came along in about '68 or '69.
    Guess that means I’m showing my age.
    When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
    "Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way."

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    Quote Originally Posted by msgt/ret View Post
    Guess that means Im showing my age.
    Well, if you were really showing your age, you might tell all the whippersnappers that your caseless ammo involved caps and a powderhorn.

    Seriously, it makes me wonder how much further handgun ammunition can evolve before we start vaporizing bad guys like on Star Trek. That would be some stopping power!

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    Caseless was also tried with HK's G11...G11 (Caseless Military Rifle)

    And, OP: those Black Talons you have are collector's items; they usually go for about $2-3 per round. After the BT was "discontinued" by Winchester, it came back out as the Ranger SXT (Same Exact Talon/Thing, depending on who you talk to--Winchester vehemently denies it). The non-Ranger SXT was different; didn't give you the jagged petals like the BT's did.

    The BT has been improved, though, and the latest generation is the Ranger-T; it's a lot more reliable at opening up after going through barriers like cloth (something that the original BT was iffy at, at best).

    I had several boxes of BT a few years back, in various calibers, and sold them; about 100 rounds, overall. I made enough to buy a case of the Ranger-T.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

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    Quote Originally Posted by BloodyBucket View Post
    So, that Black Talon .45, 9BP, .380 Glaser, and other "vintage" ammo that I've got kicking around...is it range fodder, museum stuff or something else? Has defensive pistol ammo really changed that much in the last couple decades? Do you think today's stuff will be eclipsed ten or twenty years in the future?
    Welcome to the forums "Bloodybucket"!

    Your "vintage" ammo is probably better then a FMJ, so it may still be useful. :)

    Thankfully there are people who have been studying/researching defensive ammo for years so it makes it easier for us: Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

    Ten years from now, who knows what bullets will do. Have a tiny laser in the hollowpoint? Explode after being activated by blood? Look like a FMJ, but expand reliably. Have a two stage bullet-- fires at a slow speed for low recoil, then "fires" again once it is out of the barrel adding another 500-600fps. We'll see.
    --Jason--

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