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38spl +P out of a snub nose vs. 380acp out of the LCP

50K views 52 replies 43 participants last post by  Kutz 
#1 ·
i want to get a Ruger LCR 38spl but i'm wondering if it's worth it since i already have a LCP 380acp. so my question is how much more powerful is the 38spl. +P out of the 2 inch (1.88 to be exact) snub nose revolver versus the 380acp out of the LCP (2.75")? i know there is formula to compute for the energy but i can't remember and i can't find it. :tongue: i also watched different ammo testing of the 38spl. +P and the 380acp and it shows the 38spl penetrates 3" deeper on average.
 
#3 ·
No contest. The .38 Special offers a good deal more punch, even out of a snub. Don't have time to support that right now but can do so later if others don't take up this thread.
 
#4 ·
I personally don't think there is a huge difference between the two at least in terms of ft/lbs of energy. The .38 does what it does with a bullet thats a good deal heavier so I do think it has an advantage over the .380 acp but it's not night and day.
 
#5 ·
Most people will agree the 38 is a better performer. I agree with that, many will also throw wild unsubstantiated numbers out, which I think is amusing. Most opinions, which is what you will get for answers, including my own opinion, are just that with no scientific data, which is why I suggest you go to ballistics by the inch (ballisticsbytheinch.com) and look at real world test results, (velocity) from real world weapons, including the 1.875" barrel snubs and the 2.75 LCP. If you are looking solely at energy which you seem to state in your original post, take the velocities and bullet weights from ballistics by the inch and go to Muzzle Energy Calculator and plug in the numbers. Then you have the energy graphs from muzzle out. It gets a little interesting then.

Example
380acp test results out of a LCP
Speer Gold Dot 90gr-918fps = 168.4ft-lbs muzzle energy
Corbon 80gr DPX-849fps = 144.03ft-lbs energy
Buffalo Bore 90gr JHP+P-1054fps = 221.99ft-lbs energy

38 special out of 1.875 inch S&W 642
Speer Gold Dot 135gr-897fps = 160.78ft-lbs muzzle energy
Corbon 110gr DPX-961fps = 184.54
Buffalo Bore 110gr JHP+P-1104fps = 243.55ft-lbs muzzle energy (Buffalo Bore fps from their site [1.875" barrel] as ballistics by the inch hasn't tested Buffalo bore for 38)

As you can see, if you look solely at energy there is not as big a difference as one might expect. Is 20-40 ft-lbs a lot? That is a subjective question. And many will lean toward the 38spl is better due to the heavier bullet loads, but looking solely at energy as the weight increase the velocity decreases, to the point of diminishing returns, and energy drops off quickly. Now, is the 38 special, especially +P, a better overall "performer" than a 380acp from an energy stand point, yes. But the fact is a 38spl was designed for 4 inch + barrels and therefore starting at 4 inch barrels on up you begin to really see the gains over the 380acp that you would expect.

Just a note, I have an LCP, and 4 1.875 inch S&W's, and one Taurus 38spl snub. I see no difference regardless of which (LCP vs snub) I carry, it is really tomatoes-tomotoes to me. So, IMHO, unless you just want a LCR (which are great guns and that is enough reason :image035:), I don't think you will be getting the "step up" you desire. Now, for a wheel gun, a Ruger SP101 357Mag with a 3" barrel stoked with Buffalo Bore 125gr JHP-1476fps = 435.33ft-lbs muzzle energy (513.47ft-lbs from a 4"), may be more what you are looking for as an upgrade..........:wink:
 
#6 ·
Energy has little correlation with bullet effectiveness. While shot placement is key it requires that the bullet has the ability to reliably reach the vitals under less than ideal conditions to be effective. A bullet that expends all its energy yet fails to reach the vitals is much less effective than a bullet which expends 60% of its energy while passing completely through the vitals. Expansion is bonus points as it increases the damage done to those vitals. The FBI protocol has proven to be a good indicator of those rounds most likely to be the most effective on the street in real self defense shootings. The organizations that train professional trigger pullers pay attention to these tests, so I tend to follow suit.
 
#7 ·
My wife has both, loves them both. You will be happy with which ever one you get. I would, however, recommend the LCR without the laser, the grip is much better without the laser, much less shock felt in your hand with the hogue grip.
 
#8 ·
There's no reason to have to rely on light bullets in the .38 Special such as would be appropriate for the .380 ACP. Buffalo Bore also publishes data for +P 158 grain bullets.

S&W mod. 60, 2 inch- 1040 fps (379 ft. lbs.)
S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch- 1059 fps (393 ft. lbs.)
Ruger SP101, 3 inch- 1143 fps (458 ft. lbs.)
S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch- 1162 fps (474 ft. lbs.)


I tested this Buffalo Bore load over the chronograph and the loads checked out to perform as Buffalo Bore claims from a 2-inch barrel.

The plain ol' Federal, Remington, and Winchester +P 158 grain loadings known as the "FBI Load" also are still capable. They beat out .380 loads if ft./lbs of energy are important and they do it with heavier bullets.
 
#9 ·
IMO -
38sp - more power with high pressure loads, heavier bullets, more reliable, can be fired from a pocket, simplicity can be beautiful.
380ACP - flat profile adds some additional carry options, faster reload, slight edge on capacity, *possibly* more accurate with longer site radius.

I have an S&W 642 and a Sig 238 and enjoy both.
 
#14 ·
I'm afraid I got lost reading the link.

The formula for calculating foot-pounds of energy that I've found useful is found in a Lyman 46th edition reloading manual.

Velocity X Velocity X Bullet Weight In Grains ÷ 450240 = Foot/lbs.
 
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#11 ·
thanks for all the help and replies guys. i do like to get the LCR but i'm afraid that it just might end up gathering dust in the safe. i want to justify to myself that it would be worth carrying the LCR over the LCP. the LCP is lighter, smaller, carries 6+1 rounds and faster to reload. the LCR is bulkier, a bit heavier, has only 5 rounds and slower to reload. the only advantage i see is it's more powerful round. what would you do if you guys are in my position? :embarassed:
 
#13 ·
We have both the LCP, and also several LCR's (one of every caliber they offer so far, .22, .38, .357). Love them LCR's. My favorite is the .38 version. Lighter than the .357 version. I even put wood grips on the .38 and it has become my primary carry gun preferred over my Kahr PM9, Glock 26, the LCP and others.
 
#16 ·
I have both calibers and I carry one or the other all the time. I will say that I do have more confidence in the .38 special caliber over the .380 but mainly due to bullet weight. IMO, the perfect .380 round would be something in the 110, 115gr backed by the power from something along the lines of the BuffaloBore +p stuff. For now I'll continue to carry my 638 w/crimson trace backed up by my Sig P238, or maybe my S&W Bodyguard .380 stoked with the Buffalbore stuff in the heaviest grain configuration they offer so far.

I do believe that the .380 will easily do the job if used correctly and shot placement is good. My main concern with the tiny .380 autos is that the idiot that forces the draw might be so dumb as to think that the pistol doesn't really pose a deadly threat, so the first line of defense as a deterrent gets lost whereas when the revolver comes up, the rounds are visible for all to see.


Don't ragg on me for saying the deterrent thing. I'll always try to use/add every variable possible in most everything especially in important matters such as self defense.:wink:
 
#17 ·
I have a ColtMustang stainless loaded with hydrashoks (or whatever they are called now). I also have a smith 642 airweight, loaded with Winchester SWCJHP +P ammo.
I tested the ammo on 1 gallon plastic jugs, filled with water. The 38 clearly did more damage to them. The exit holes were larger, and the jug itself was deformed more. However, after seeing what was left of the jugs, I can't see someone getting back up after an upper body hit, with either gun. Now if you live where the populace has 6 layers of clothing becasue of the weather, go with 38 caliber 158 grain wadcutters.
The 38 with +P has a bit more recoil, but still second shot controllable. The mustand, being flatter, and myself being a smaller guy is more easily concealable, in both IWB or pocket carry.

Forget about "range" accuracy with either gun. They are meant for bad breath distances,or as we used to say when hunting, use it when you are about to be eaten......
I don't feel like either is a mouse gun and will continue to carry either. Remember:
"two in the chest, one in the head;
even the jolly green giant will fall down dead."
Whatever you decide-- practice, practice, practice...
 
#28 ·
Correct, use what you will carry and can hit with. I have both, and what people don't understand is that they are pretty much equal when fired out of a pocket size pistol. Don't listen to all the +P hype. On a snub nose, the +P 38 does abosolutly nothing over a standard 38 Special, except make a louder boom. You have to have more than a 3" barrel to realize any benefit from a +P 38. By the time the lead reaches the end of a snub, the powder has not finished burning, and you get a powder flash burning in open air. Now if you have a long barrel, the 38 +P will win every time, but from a pocket pistol, the 380 has a lighter piece of lead going faster vs. the 38, which is heavier and slower. They turn out to be a toss up on ft/lbs of energy. I carry the 380 because it fits in my pocket better. Go to ballistics by the inch website. Both the 38 and the 380 produce an average of 150 ft/lbs of energy when fired from a 2" barrel.
 
#20 ·
Detail Page for Part # 23606
Gold Dot Personal Protection - 380 Auto

Part Number Cartridge
Bullet Wt. Bullet Type Box Count Bullet Coefficient
23606 380 Auto 90 GDHP 20 0.101

Velocity(in feet per second) Energy (in foot pounds)
Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards
1040 943 871 216 178 152

Trajectory if sighted at 25 yards Test Barrel Length in inches Usage
25 yards
50 yards
75 yards
100 yards
0.0 -1.3 -5.1 -11.5 3.75 1


Detail Page for Part # 23720
Gold Dot Personal Protection - 38 Special +P

Part Number Cartridge
Bullet Wt. Bullet Type Box Count Bullet Coefficient
23720 38 Special +P 125 GDHP 20 0.14

Velocity(in feet per second) Energy (in foot pounds)
Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards Muzzle 50 yards 100 yards
945 891 845 248 220 198

Trajectory if sighted at 25 yards Test Barrel Length in inches Usage
25 yards
50 yards
75 yards
100 yards
0.0 -1.7 -6.1 -13.4 4-V 1

If you look at the info, the .380 has a velocity of 1040 @ the muzzle, with 216 ft. lb. of energy.

The .38 has 945fps velocity @ the muzzle with 248 ft. lb. of energy

Speer Ammo - Ballistics Tables

This information, coupled with a reliablity factor, would lead me to want 5 shots of .38+p over six .380 most days
 
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#24 · (Edited)
Check out the .380 tests at Goldenloki. http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/380acp/gel380acp.htm

After first going through a few layers of denim, the .380 FMJ tested out of a P3at still got 16-17 inches of penetration.

Cor Bon 90 gr JHP got 13 inches and reliable expansion - not too bad, but I prefer FMJ-FP in my LCPs. If I got a snubbie, I would probably use LSWC (not HP), so the issue of expansion is moot for me.

I'm actually considering a LCR myself, but as a supplement/possible replacement for my PM9...not for my LCPs. The LCP is a whole order of magnitude smaller, lighter, and flatter than a snubbie. And as mentioned, you get 7 shots instead of only 5, a faster reload, and easier ability to carry/conceal the reload.
 
#25 ·
Carry both :smile:
Just joshing, as everybody needs to figure out their own comfort level, threat level, likely requirements, etc. I typically carry two J frames, primarily because there's always a chance of malfunction with any firearm.
If you ever need one, you'll probably be well-served if you shoot fast & hit solidly--it's pretty chancy, regardless of our attempts to make it foolproof. So, go with the one you prefer, because that's probably the one you'll practice with the most. And practice leads to speedy, quality hits, plus improved ability to deal with malfunctions.
 
#27 ·
I have both and LCP and an LCR (in 38spl) and if felt recoil is any indication, then the LCR must be much more powerful! :tongue:

Seriously though, I have and like both. In my heart I am a revolver guy... I just love 'em! BUT... the size/weight/concealability of the LCP is very tough to be beat... and it is a very shootable gun for its size (much more so than the LCR which is significantly snappier to the point of being unpleasant to shot after 20-30 rounds... not so with the LCP which is actually a pleasure to shoot). I have had the LCR longer and resisted the LCP until just recently... but I have to say, now that I finally broke down and bought the LCP (the AZ Centennial Edition, I am from AZ) I am very glad I did and I do indeed find it much easier to carry. I literally forget I have it on me. The LCR is easy to carry too, don't get me wrong... but I am always aware it is there. The LCP literally disappears into a pocket of cargo pants/shorts and is forgotten. That is a real plus in the LCP's camp. All that said... I won't be selling my LCR anytime soon.

If you are considering getting an LCR and already own and LCP I say go for it. I doubt you will regret it and it will give you another carry option.
 
#30 ·
I have both also. Both will kill a man at 21 feet with no problem. Both are small and light easy to carry one is 5 rounds the other 7+1.
If I need more than 5 maybe I am in the wrong place. The LCP is a good weapon. For some reason I am attached to the S&W 38.
Figure out what works for you. As for debating the rounds ,just away to pass time not much more.
 
#31 ·
I carry a KLCR or an LCP or both. I can pulverize a paper plate from close range with the LCP faster than I can with the LCR. Snubbies are particularly cantankerous and bouncy little beasts for some reason. Those hot +P BB rounds are particularly annoying. So, I'd just forgo the heavy +Ps when I'm looking for smack and shoot Hornady CD 357 - it is available around here on a regular basis and seems accurate enough.

Heck, I have have some 110 gr +P CDs in my LCR right now that probably aren't much more than the XTPs in my LCP. Am I worried?

I got better things to worry about, like how and when to choose to wield my gun during a self defense crisis in the first place.
 
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