Ballistic Glass Tests - 9mm +P+, 357 Sig, 40 SW, 45 ACP

This is a discussion on Ballistic Glass Tests - 9mm +P+, 357 Sig, 40 SW, 45 ACP within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Interesting test. Against a human attacker, if the bullet had to go through a forearm first (they have a weapon raised) then a little more ...

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Thread: Ballistic Glass tests - 9mm +P+, 357 Sig, 40 SW, 45 ACP

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array CDW4ME's Avatar
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    Interesting test. Against a human attacker, if the bullet had to go through a forearm first (they have a weapon raised) then a little more penetration might not be a bad thing. I feel about equally well protected with a premium HP that delivers 400+# KE whether it's 45, 10mm, 40 S&W or .357 Sig

    If you are not KE oriented ignore the following:
    9mm can deliver the 400# KE out of a Glock 19 with Ranger T +P or +P+ , but falls short of that arbitary minimum out of the 26.
    45 acp approaches 400# KE out of the Glock 30 /36 with Ranger T 230 gr. and exceeds it out of a 5'' 1911
    10mm full power load (Hornady 155 XTP) will exceed 500# KE (562#) out of a Glock 29
    357 Sig and 40 S&W can exceed 400# KE out of a Glock subcompact 27/33 with the 33 having the KE advantage.
    No internal lock or magazine disconnect on my pistols!

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  3. #17
    Member Array Blades's Avatar
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    Was testing done with hollow points only, or full metal jacket also?

    If the "bad guys" are carrying ballistic glass, then I suppose I'll switch to my paintball gun, until then I'll trust Dr. Roberts and his testing.
    --Jason--

  4. #18
    Member Array ScottieG59's Avatar
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    The tests sound interesting. I have seen a case where this defense was defeated in a New York City subway toll booth. The bad guy used gasoline in a sprayer to douse the worker, followed by a threat to ignite it.

    Commonly, we do not eliminate threats as much as we shape or redirect them. As you lower the small arms threat, you need to consider the fact that previously unlikely attacks will increase in likelihood.

    It makes sense to run through tabletop exercises to discover and address vulnerabilities that remain.

    Some possible issues will be coverage above the suspended ceiling and below elevated floors. Others will include doors that are propped open by smokers and evidenced by discarded cigarettes. Another is the fact most electronic doors unlock if the fire alarm is activated. I will not list all, since there are so many.

    One last comment: when I perform vulnerability assessments, there will likely be security controls that either will not be addressed right away, will be mitigated indirectly or accepted as a residual risk. For those remaining vulnerabilities, a Plan of Actions and Milestones (POA&M) is created to detail how remaining findings will be addressed, when it will be completed and who the Action Officer is. This information is very tightly controlled since it will detail how an attacker should focus their efforts. Even those with the appropriate clearance will be denied access without a need to know.

  5. #19
    Distinguished Member Array onacoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beans View Post
    I just happen to have my Marlin 1894 lever gun in .357 with me. The first shot just sailed right through the material. It was an eye opener for everyone.
    I bet you could hear the wind being sucked up when their heines puckered! This is for the training range, althought they have it at the public access counters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blades

    Was testing done with hollow points only, or full metal jacket also?
    Yes we only tested JHP as this is the PD's duty round. If you look at the pictures, the JHP DID NOT expand!

    Quote Originally Posted by CDW4ME

    Interesting test. Against a human attacker, if the bullet had to go through a forearm first (they have a weapon raised) then a little more penetration might not be a bad thing. I feel about equally well protected with a premium HP that delivers 400+# KE whether it's 45, 10mm, 40 S&W or .357 Sig
    Again these tests only prove how this brand of ballastic glass reacts to only the type of rounds fired at it. Any one of the calibers you mention and all the way down to a .22LR will produce "Deadly Force" when use correctly! This is just a reference check. IMHO, I carry a .357 Sig for my personal daily carry because I know it will work and I train with it, but I don't "spank" my kid (over 40 and a LEO) who carrys a Kimber .45 ACP as his duty pistol.


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  6. #20
    New Member Array jmvdigital's Avatar
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    Out of curiosity, and purely in terms of ballistic performance, how come the .45 round didn't penetrate or produce the halo that the .40 and .357 did?

    I always thought the heavier bullet (230gr) bullet of the .45 had a higher sectional density (SD) and than a .40 (180gr)... and thus lived up the generally accepted mantra that a heavier/slower bullet will penetrate further and more forcefully than a lighter/faster bullet that expends its energy relatively quickly with less penetration. Wouldn't that concept have been proven on the glass?

  7. #21
    New Member Array jmvdigital's Avatar
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    No thoughts here?

  8. #22
    Distinguished Member Array onacoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmvdigital View Post
    Out of curiosity, and purely in terms of ballistic performance, how come the .45 round didn't penetrate or produce the halo that the .40 and .357 did?

    I always thought the heavier bullet (230gr) bullet of the .45 had a higher sectional density (SD) and than a .40 (180gr)... and thus lived up the generally accepted mantra that a heavier/slower bullet will penetrate further and more forcefully than a lighter/faster bullet that expends its energy relatively quickly with less penetration. Wouldn't that concept have been proven on the glass?
    With this test the energy of the 45 was defeated by the media and my assumption is due to the larger diameter and the slower Velocity. Now if the test media was ballistic gelatin the results would have been different.

    Note none of the rounds expanded. Since this is a four layer product developed to absorb the energy of the pistol bullets the faster velocity of the bullets gave them a deeper penetration. Again note the 9mm +P+ out of a Glock 17 did not penetrate beyond the second layer, however the same round out of a MP5 went straight through. As I stated this is a test of the performance of this ballistic glass and if you want to translate this into your carry firearm then get a MP5 and shoot 9mm +P+. However, anything from a .22LR to a 500 S & W will generate deadly force with the correct application. My DCP is a HK P2000 SK in .357 Sig., but do I think a person carring a .380 is under gunned? NO! If they train with that caliber and can place bullets on the stop button.


    In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm and three or more is a congress. -- John Adams

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  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by onacoma View Post
    Again this is an LE facility. As for the +P+, the only manufacturers I know that allow the use of +P+ are Glock and HK. The department keeps the +P+ for their HK MP5s, I believe only 1 officer out of the 200 carries a 9mm on duty and she carries the Winchester Ranger +P T-Series. My personal carry pistols are HK P2000 SK 357 Sig or P2000 SK 40 SW with a 357 Sig barrel in it, and the only exception being a Walther PPS 9mm. Note: out of my HK P2000 SK 9mm (range training pistol) the 9mm +P+ is a flame thrower ( 8" flame).

    That being said, I would rather have a MP5 with 9mm +P+ than a Colt M4 in a CQB.

    Based only on the energy halos, the 40 SW or the 357 Sig seem to be the ticket. And as I stated this isn't a caliber proof, so I personally don't feel under armed when I'm carring any of my 9mm +P pistols or even with my wife carring her PK 380. My son who is an LE in Northern Nevada carries a 45 ACP and I never feel the least bit under armed when we're with him.


    ^^^^^^^^^^Thanks for^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Explaining that for us, as I was wondering why +P+ was tested and not +P for the 9mm.

    Thanks for the testing results and time.
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  10. #24
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Very interesting, thanks for posting. My take on it is carry a rifle if or when you can. And whatever handgun round you choose, practice with it so you can put shots where they need to be in quick succession.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.


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  11. #25
    Distinguished Member Array onacoma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    My take on it is carry a rifle if or when you can. And whatever handgun round you choose, practice with it so you can put shots where they need to be in quick succession.
    + 1

    You must have graduated summa cum laude from your defensive firearm class.


    In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm and three or more is a congress. -- John Adams

    If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it's free! -- P.J. O'Rourke

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