9mm Practice vs Carry - Grain and POI

This is a discussion on 9mm Practice vs Carry - Grain and POI within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Is it way too complicated when a bad guy has a gun to your wife or kid and center of mass is the the size ...

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Thread: 9mm Practice vs Carry - Grain and POI

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Civil_Response's Avatar
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    Is it way too complicated when a bad guy has a gun to your wife or kid and center of mass is the the size of the side of his head?

    There's center of mass, then there's center of visible mass...

    How confident are you? Does 115 vs 147 make a difference now?


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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    No.

    I can keep either on a 3x5 notecard at 50 feet on in with an aimed shot, no difference in POA/POI--that is, if there is any, it is under an inch.
    atctimmy likes this.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array Civil_Response's Avatar
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    Not doubting you, but that's also when you have all day to take the shot... how many on this forum could turn an inch group into 5-6 inches or more by being under pressure/stress alone... add an inch to that and it could be life or death for the wrong person.

    Just for discussion purposes... I know there are people here who could place a round firmly into a fly's butt time and time again, but the majority cannot and an inch makes a big difference, or could.

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder71 View Post
    Not doubting you, but that's also when you have all day to take the shot... how many on this forum could turn an inch group into 5-6 inches or more by being under pressure/stress alone... add an inch to that and it could be life or death for the wrong person.

    Just for discussion purposes... I know there are people here who could place a round firmly into a fly's butt time and time again, but the majority cannot and an inch makes a big difference, or could.
    Which is why we practice. Which is why we take classes that put us under pressure, to find out if we can make those shots. An which is why we practice some more.

    Fact is, if your group opens up to 5-6" under that kind of pressure, it's not going to matter what you've practiced with, and the minute differences between POA/POI will be moot. You shouldn't take that shot.
    atctimmy and IAm_Not_Lost like this.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array Civil_Response's Avatar
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    And maybe that's what it comes down to.... I hope none of us ever find out.

    I just like to discuss this stuff, learn something new, get a fresh perspective, etc.

  7. #21
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    It would seem to be more beneficial to deliberately practice with different bullet weights on a regular basis than to fail to practice at all.
    atctimmy likes this.
    Charter Member of the DC .41 LC Society

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  8. #22
    Distinguished Member Array ArkhmAsylm's Avatar
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    I practice with as close to the same weight as my SD ammo, but I also shoot off a mag or two of my SD ammo with each range run.

    Winchester Ranger 124gr NATO FMJ along with the Ranger T-series +P+ 127gr for my G17 home defense firearm, & Ranger 147gr FMJ & Ranger 147gr T-series for my EDC.
    "Historical examination of the right to bear arms, from English antecedents to the drafting of the Second Amendment, bears proof that the right to bear arms has consistently been, and should still be, construed as an individual right." -- U.S. District Judge Sam Cummings, Re: U.S. vs Emerson (1999)

  9. #23
    Member Array azretired's Avatar
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    I buy 124 grain Ball 9mm ammo and Winchester 124 +p duty ammo

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    WWB is cheap enough and is offered in 115gr. Most people that practice don't care about bullet weight. They carry a good defense load and then practice with whatever is cheap.

    When I had a 9mm, I carried and trained with 124gr. When I used it for games, I shot soft 147gr loads.

    In my 10mm, I carry and train with 180gr.

    In my .45 ACP, I carry and train with 230gr.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array Kilowatt3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder71 View Post
    Is it way too complicated when a bad guy has a gun to your wife or kid and center of mass is the the size of the side of his head?

    There's center of mass, then there's center of visible mass...

    How confident are you? Does 115 vs 147 make a difference now?

    No, it doesn't.

    At 'typical' SD ranges, the difference in POI from different bullet weights is absolutely negligible. Assuming you're considering the above shot from 7-10 yards (max), your shaking hands, or the perp's random movements will introduce many times more inaccuracy than the bullet weight will.

    Consider, too, that any difference in POI vs. POA is going to be vertical, not horizontal. So, you're aiming for the bridge of the BG's nose, but instead, you hit him squarely between the eyebrows. Does anybody care?

    If you miss, it will not be because the bullet weight is different than what you practiced with. It'll be because you're not a good enought shot OR the BG made an unexpected move at a critical moment.

    FWIW - I'm not suggesting for a minute that I'm such a hot shot that I'd effortlessly drill the guy between the eyes. Just that if I couldn't/didn't it would not be because of the bullet weight!

    Regards,
    Jim
    Chesafreak likes this.

  12. #26
    Senior Member Array IAm_Not_Lost's Avatar
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    I carry 147gr but usually practice with WWB or Federal 115gr, although I do jump on S&B ammo when my LGS's have it cheaply in 124 or147gr. That all being said here's what I have noticed regarding POI and heavier bullets. At 15-25 yards my POI from a G19 with 147gr is higher than 115gr by about 2-3inches. Take that with a grain of salt though because I'm content with 5inch groupings at 25 yards, no sharp shooter here. At closer ranges I notice no real difference at all.
    "Brilliant. So now we got a huge guy theory, and a serial crusher theory. Top notch. What's your name?" - Paul Smecker

  13. #27
    Member Array WillyNilly's Avatar
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    I practice with the same loads that I carry. Instead of paying for premium loads I buy old fashioned HPs like the UMC 40sw 180 HPs. They were only a few dollars more than the FMJs (100 round pack) so I just get the HPs. I do the same with 100 round pack UMC 9mm 115 HPs for my 9mm. I practice at 25 feet.

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