12 g. bird shot for SD; meat test by gunblast.com/Jeff Quinn - Page 3

12 g. bird shot for SD; meat test by gunblast.com/Jeff Quinn

This is a discussion on 12 g. bird shot for SD; meat test by gunblast.com/Jeff Quinn within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by paramedic70002 FWIW years ago I read a Vietnam War novel, called The Thirteenth Valley, by a fellow named DelVecchio who was with ...

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 53
Like Tree39Likes

Thread: 12 g. bird shot for SD; meat test by gunblast.com/Jeff Quinn

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Where the deer and the antelope roam
    Posts
    3,667
    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    FWIW years ago I read a Vietnam War novel, called The Thirteenth Valley, by a fellow named DelVecchio who was with the 101st. He stated that #6 in a short barreled trench gun did a great job of removing faces which pretty much took the fight right out of the enemy.
    That would do it. I worked a robbery some years back where the BG took a load of #6 shot to the upper chest/neck. The made a beeline for the hospital, that is where we went to look for them as soon as we were told what he shot him with. It was fun going into the jail and ribbing him about his new tattoo.


  2. #32
    Member Array GunTrooper's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    175
    Very good video. I like his point that human bodies are not nearly as tough as pork shoulder... In fact, human bodies are really very fragile. Deer, wild pigs, coyotes are all far more gifted athletically than humans. You could remove one leg from any of those animals and they could still outrun a human. Deer can survive being hit by a car; walk away from the scene with no medical treatment!

    Most importantly, I really don't think that counting on one shot to stop the bad guy is ever a good strategy. Follow-up shots are a necessity, (which is why I would not go with a coach gun or a single shot...) I like my chances with a 12ga at inside-a-house range, loaded with 5 rounds of #6 shot.

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    6,391
    The FBI established minimum penetration standards for a very good reason.

    If you believe in those standards, you don't use birdshot. Period.

    IIRC, a police officer was using birdshot in training. He forgot to unload the birdshot when training was over. Fired his shotgun at a felon with birdshot, and was in turn killed by the felon.

    Birdshot is for...wait for it...birds - and other small critters that don't try to kill you.

    Buckshot is for...wait for it...bucks - which just so happen to be a very similar weight to an adult human male.

    Use #1 (16 pellets .30 cal) or 00 (9 pellets .34 cal) buckshot.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
    www.armedcitizensnetwork.org - member
    Glock 30, 19, 26; Ruger SP101, LCR, Mini 14; Marlin 336 .30-30; Mossberg 500
    CT Lasers

  4. #34
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    3,936
    Deer may run after a car collision, but they often don't go all that far. I hit a deer, flipped up and over my car, and died 1/2 hour later ~40 yds away. Guys I've worked with and myself have put down deer that are mortally wounded after being hit. Remember, they generally run from cover to cover, just b/c they make it back to cover after being hit, doesn't mean they "walked away with no medical treatment". One deer had two compound fractures, both left legs, and made it, uphill (no not both ways), 50 yds into the trees before she gave up.

  5. #35
    VIP Member
    Array nn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    7,124
    In reality bird shot is more lethal than given credit in this thread.
    At across the room distance it will do massive damage.
    Shot placement is still the key as with any firearm.

    Do I think you should use it-----no
    Do I think it would save the day if used at 7-10 yds----yes
    Do I propose 7.5 shot-----no, something bigger.

  6. #36
    Member Array BroBud's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    south MS
    Posts
    145
    I liked the video, BUT will stick to my #3 Buckshot in 20 gauge. Now, for some reason, I am hungry for pepper pork...

  7. #37
    Senior Member Array itschuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    739
    I do know I sure wouldn't want to be shot at 20ft with some of the duck loads I have...
    Current collection: Too many according to the wife...

  8. #38
    VIP Member Array Cuda66's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    minnesota
    Posts
    2,370
    Quote Originally Posted by itschuck View Post
    I do know I sure wouldn't want to be shot at 20ft with some of the duck loads I have...
    Unfortunately, it's not about what you would or wouldn't want to get shot with.

    It's about what would stop someone in an altered mental state (drugs, alcohol, anger, psychosis, etc) who isn't going to feel pain.

    And any and all birdshot is woefully inadequate in that respect.
    sgb likes this.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

  9. #39
    Senior Member Array itschuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    739
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
    Unfortunately, it's not about what you would or wouldn't want to get shot with.

    It's about what would stop someone in an altered mental state (drugs, alcohol, anger, psychosis, etc) who isn't going to feel pain.

    And any and all birdshot is woefully inadequate in that respect.
    At 1700 fps and with 70 18 caliber pellets x 6 shells?? I think whomever it is will go down.
    Current collection: Too many according to the wife...

  10. #40
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Where the deer and the antelope roam
    Posts
    3,667
    Quote Originally Posted by itschuck View Post
    At 1700 fps and with 70 18 caliber pellets x 6 shells?? I think whomever it is will go down.
    Who say's you get 6 shots? A solid hit? Plan for the worst scenario, not how you want the situation to unfold. And then its 70 tiny pellets, not a slug, I would like to see the 1700 FPS birdshot load.

  11. #41
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    28,434
    Quote Originally Posted by Cuda66 View Post
    It's about what would stop someone in an altered mental state (drugs, alcohol, anger, psychosis, etc) who isn't going to feel pain.
    Absolutely right.

    My choice: #1 or #00 buck, 2-3/4in 12ga. Anything less, and I'd be concerned with not having enough to stop another's violence-under-the-influence sufficiently quickly to survive it. Very possibly, duck loads would work; then again, they might not. In the meantime, I'll go with what on- and off-duty LEO's have recommended and used in their weapons.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  12. #42
    sgb
    sgb is offline
    VIP Member Array sgb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    You don't need to know
    Posts
    2,414
    Quote Originally Posted by itschuck View Post
    At 1700 fps and with 70 18 caliber pellets x 6 shells?? I think whomever it is will go down.
    You appear to suffer from the "my gunfight" syndrome.

    "Thinking outside your box"
    "...Assumptions are awesome when they're actually right, but they sure can hurt when you're wrong......"
    by Larry Correia


    I've been a concealed carry instructor for five years, I hang out with a bunch of gun nuts, and I've been around self-defense buffs for most of my adult life. In that time I've seen a recurring theme, and unfortunately it can be a dangerous one. Many of us have something in common.

    I call it My Gunfight. We've imagined a scene, a violent encounter, in our head. And in this scene, we take decisive action and we prevail and save the day. Many of us have a mental fabrication of what My Gunfight is going to be like.

    Most people who chose to carry a gun have done this. I have myself. It isn't anything to be ashamed of. In fact, it really helps develop a proper mindset to be able to realistically assess what kind of terrible things can happen to you and start laying some groundwork about how we want to respond.

    The problem comes in when we make assumptions about My Gunfight.
    Assumptions are awesome when they're actually right, but they sure can hurt when you're wrong.

    I have had students tell me that they never practice at anything past conversational distance, because the average gunfight takes place at only seven feet. See, in Their Gunfight, the bad guy will be conveniently placed at a distance that they can actually hit stuff.

    Sadly, there's no such thing as an average gunfight. The only thing they have in common is that they all suck. If you only prepare for a gunfight inside an elevator, it will be a bummer when the crazy guy starts shooting at you across the mall. I've had students tell me that if the assailant is that far away, then they wouldn't be justified in shooting. That's also a mistake. There are hundreds of reasons why you might need to shoot somebody out past conversational distance. And if you find yourself in a situation where you need to, you dang well better have practiced.

    Another assumption I get from many students is that they will have plenty of time to draw their gun and get it into action. Oftentimes these folks want to carry with an empty chamber. There is a misconception that this is somehow safer, and besides in Their Gunfight, they'll have plenty of time, and both hands available, to get their pistol into action.

    In real life, the bad guys may not be as compliant as the ones in Your Gunfight. In real life, the violence may occur so quickly that you do not have time to rack the slide. Or you may have one hand occupied holding the bad guy back from stabbing you in the head with a screwdriver. The point is, you won't know until it happens. Even best case scenario you've added a significant amount of time to your draw stroke (and if you've been in a fight to the death, you know that even a second is a significant amount of time), and one more chance to fumble and screw up.

    During my regular class, I integrate a role-playing session. We go through several realistic scenarios with students and actors armed with rubber weapons. All of these scenarios are based on actual cases, and like real life, most of them tend to happen quickly.

    Usually after going through the role-plays, nobody is tempted to carry chamber empty anymore. A fatal assumption was pointed out in Their Gunfight, and they adjust accordingly. If you're really worried about carrying with a loaded chamber, get a good, safe holster that keeps the gun secure and protects the trigger. If you still have a mental hang up, switch to a gun that has a heavier trigger or other safety devices. Anything is faster and safer than assuming you'll be in a position to rack a slide.

    These are just a few examples of assumptions caused by My Gunfight.
    One of my personal favorite students of all time was hung up, not only on carrying chamber empty, but he also had a belief that he would "easily" be able to neutralize the bad guy by shooting them in the leg. No, I kid you not. He brought this up repeatedly during class, even after I pointed out that it could be just as fatal only slower, the same lethal force in the eyes of the law, and with the added benefit of not being nearly as effective at incapacitating an actual threat. What did I know? I was only the guy he was paying to teach him this stuff.

    During the role-play, he was lucky enough to get a scenario that I use to demonstrate the principles of a Tueller drill. Without going into too many details, I'm playing the part of an obviously dangerous threat, interrupted in the act of committing a forcible felony on a third person, with the ability and opportunity to cause him serious bodily harm, and I just happen to start twenty-one feet away with a rubber knife.

    I charged. He went for his gun. Not only did he fail to rack the slide and shoot me in the leg like he had talked about, he managed to draw the gun, fumble, and actually tossed it across the room. I stabbed him a few times, and as a happy bonus, picked his gun up before I fled the scene.

    His Gunfight had not taken into account things like speed, adrenalin, or confusion. Last I checked, he was carrying a chamber loaded Glock, in a good holster, and practicing a bunch.

    That was an extreme example, but I think all of us need to watch out for the decisions we make based upon our assumptions. Be smart, be realistic, and don't be afraid to keep an open mind. Just because My Gunfight makes sense to me, doesn't mean that the world cares one bit.

    -Larry Correia is an author, firearms instructor, and one of the owners of Fuzzy Bunny Movie Guns in Draper, Utah. FBMG is a gun store, specializing in self-defense needs, training, and full-line smithing.
    His first novel, Monster Hunter International, will be released by Baen Books in June 2009. The author can be reached at larry@fbmginc.com
    Cuda66 and Bad Bob like this.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

    Best Choices for Self Defense Ammunition

  13. #43
    Senior Member Array itschuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    739
    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    Who say's you get 6 shots? A solid hit? Plan for the worst scenario, not how you want the situation to unfold. And then its 70 tiny pellets, not a slug, I would like to see the 1700 FPS birdshot load.
    The size load I was talking about is a duck/goose load..pellet size is BB, the image is from Shotgun World article, a Remington Express load. The actual load I use is the Hypersonic.
    birdshot_bb_rem_lead_a.jpg
    Current collection: Too many according to the wife...

  14. #44
    Member Array Jdp751's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    S.c
    Posts
    161
    Nothing new bird shot produces a large shallow wound{{{{you really need to take your shotgun out and shoot it not just read what you find online to read.}}}} ((home defense)) first off most home defense shootings take place within 10 to 20 feet at that distance bird shot will open up approximately 4 inches with a slight amount out to 6 to 8 inches most all the energy at that distance will be within about 4 inches in circumference, and using a shell that is 2 3/4 inches and using number 2 or number 4 will be devastating, and number 6 will also perform very well (((within 20 feet))) for home defense, if you're in disbelief try it your self do a test ,remember we're talking about 20 feet or less. Using even number 6 at 20 feet it will still penetrate your blue Jean material go clean through your front ribs tear up all the center mess and break your ribs in the back and that 4 inch cavity going through the center mass of the body will turn into chop meat. If you do not want to believe me fine just take your shotgun out and try it you will be surprised what birdshot will do from 10 to 20 feet. it will not perform at longer distance. But for home defense number 2 number 4 is very well suited for protection and you do not have to worry about it penetrating into three different rooms.
    Shotgun Ammo for Home Defense - Gunblast.com - YouTube

  15. #45
    VIP Member Array Bad Bob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Where the deer and the antelope roam
    Posts
    3,667
    Quote Originally Posted by itschuck View Post
    The size load I was talking about is a duck/goose load..pellet size is BB, the image is from Shotgun World article, a Remington Express load. The actual load I use is the Hypersonic.
    birdshot_bb_rem_lead_a.jpg
    Impressive and no doubt devastating. I will stick with loads with a proven track record for my intended purpose. The only time I have seen 00 buck over penetrate was one smuggle that was shot at contact distance, the wad was imbedded in his chest and there were nice holes in about an 8" circle where all the pellets penetrated. To be honest a handgun is a better tool for HD unless you are in your safe room repelling boarders. A hand gun allows one to open and close doors, turn on/off lights and is easier and faster to bring to bear at close range.

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

#1 birdshot
,

a bird that is shot for its meat

,
birdshot death
,
birdshot deaths
,

birdshot penetration tests

,
birdshot vs meat
,
gunblast
,

gunblast birdshot

,
gunblast video shooting shotgun into meat
,
gunblast.com ham shoulder
,
jeff quin test birdshot on pork shoulder
,
jeff quinn gunblast
Click on a term to search for related topics.