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Why Is the .40 S&W So Beat Up On These Days?

110K views 546 replies 178 participants last post by  Struckat 
#1 ·
What's the deal with the .40 S&W lately? Are shooters a fickle lot or what? The .40 S&W can't seem to get any love on the forums and this after a time not so long past when all and sundry embraced it as the next great thing. It's obvious that it is currently trendy to bash the .40 S&W on several of the forums. It's: "too weak," "kicks too hard," "is too expensive," "doesn't do anything the 9mm can't do," doesn't do anything the .45 ACP can't do," and "no one apparently ever asked a question" that the .40 S&W answers, to hear hear the many detractors of late tell it.

I don't have a .40 S&W but have long thought I'd like one. Just to play with, handload for, and learn about. One of the original .40 Smith & Wesson all-steel automatics or else a Browning Hi-Power in .40 would do for me. Even back before 10mm or .40 S&W came out I used to handload .38-40 ammunition while thinking how keen it would be to have a modern pistol chambered for a .40 bullet. I've shot other folks' .40 S&W pistols over the years and it's a great round. I'm still going to get a "round tuit" one of these days and add a .40 S&W to the handguns around here.

With the .40, the bullet diameter looks good, the bullet weight range has appeal, and velocities across that weight range appear effective. I have several 9mm pistols and while that cartridge is fully adequate, given a good load, it is mundane and ho-hum in my opinion.


Some answers the .40 S&W could be said to have regarding the claims made against it.


-It'll never be weaker than the 9mm.

-It doesn't kick too hard unless one is awfully recoil sensitive or else is a disciple of "spray&pray." .40 shot recovery time is overstressed.

-Cost is relative. There's not much difference in the overall scheme of things, and the handloader easily circumvents the cost factor.

-It slings heavier, larger diameter bullets than the 9mm for a start.

-Pistols can be had with a higher ammo capacity in .40 than may be stuffed in most .45s.

-I for one, asked the question of "why not a .40" back in the 1970s so "the answer to the question that no one asked" doesn't cut it.


It's certain that I'm not the only one who thought it'd be just a pretty good idea. In fact, I think the 9mm ought to suffer a bit from competition with the .40 S&W in the marketplace. A .40 appears to be a thoughtful choice rather than just jumping on the bandwagon with the crowd. If I had to be shut up in a darkened room with a mad gorilla I know which one I'd pick and "9" would be conspicuous by its absence from the caliber designation.

Anyway, the .40 S&W looks like it might just be the best pistol cartridge I never had.
 
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#109 ·
I'm not a fan of the .40, but I have nothing against it. I just think that 9x19 works well with good ammo while providing more rounds in the weapon and less recoil, not to mention literally more bang for your buck.
 
#112 ·
"Our troops in Iraq are reporting that when using the 9mm Berettas, three or four hits to the chest are required to stop attackers."


What Dr. Piazza fails to take into account is that our troops overseas are using 9mm ball ammunition as prescribed by the Geneva Convention, not modern designed defensive JHP's. He's making an apples to oranges
comparison.
 
#113 ·
"Our troops in Iraq are reporting that when using the 9mm Berettas, three or four hits to the chest are required to stop attackers."

What Dr. Piazza fails to take into account is that our troops overseas are using 9mm ball ammunition as prescribed by the Geneva Convention, not modern designed defensive JHP's. He's making an apples to oranges comparison.
That would be the Hague Conference, not the Geneva Convention.

It does not actually prescribe the use of ball ammo, but rather prohibits "the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body."

Regards,
Jim
 
#114 ·
Call me crazy but I personaly find the 9 to be more snappy than 40. Ive tried most of the rentals my range has to offer and I kept going back to 40. I am most accurate with it and that is comparing with a variety of pistols in .38, .357, .9, .40 and .45. There is plain and simple no reason I should be carrying something I am less efficient with.

My best shooting in .40 is with a full size HK USP but I just dont have that kind of money. I will be honest I can outshoot that with a .45 in a Wilson Combat 1911 but if I cant afford the USP then I sure cant afford a WC.
 
#116 ·
OK let me get this straight.
1. If I shot into gelatin that replicates human muscle how does that not reflect shooting humans into muscle? Is the human magically different than it’s simulated gel?
2. If I shot through clothed gelatin how is that different than shooting humans through their clothes?
3. If I shot through barriers into gelatin how is that different than shooting humans through barriers?
Bullet performance is bullet performance the difference is how did it hit the target, through what, and what did it do while in the body?
During testing the bullets are put under the same exact protocol. In the real world they are not. The only real comparisons that can be made for real world shootings are those that meet the same exacting protocol. Not he was shot once somewhere in the center of mass. I want to know the distance, angle, type of barrier/cover if any, exact shot placement on the body, what the bullet hit on the way through (ie organs, bones), if it expanded, and where the bullet laid to rest. Not knowing these variables in real world shootings makes one stop shots amusing at best, but irrelevant in the world of cartridge performance.
The only way to ensure a bullet can effectively perform through ALL variables is by maximizing all four variables; speed, weight, diameter, and bullet construction. If you plan to use an inferior/marginal/ adequate bullet and make up for it in quantity of bullets on target or quality of shot placement, then so be it. But don’t pretend a 9mm can penetrate through a barrier and still have enough performance left in it to cause life threatening injuries. . I think that is the real point of the matter. If we stand toe to toe and shoot it out in the same exact manner, we pretty much get the same result. In the real world of bullets not expanding, shooting at angles and through stuff that is not optimal, and only 30% of all shots hitting their intended target you need to make every shot count.
 
#117 ·
"Our troops in Iraq are reporting that when using the 9mm Berettas, three or four hits to the chest are required to stop attackers."

This really runs the ol' BS flag up the pole. Wonder how many of our troops in Iraq are actually engaging the enemy with their 9mm's? Can he name one, and give details of the engagement?

If they are, then why? Our guys have all manner of CQB weapons - M4, P90, MP5, UMP, etc., that are far more effective than a sidearm. If a guy's down to dropping an enemy with his Beretta, something has gone bad wrong, tactically. Not saying it doesn't happen, but trying to make it sound commonplace is just baloney.

Regards,
Jim
 
#118 ·
Actually, it's not too far off, according to my active military buddy that did two tours in Iraq, and has a purple heart. Gotta remember that they are issued regular ball ammo. They don't get the good +p hollow point ammo that you and I can buy at the gun store. He said soldiers will carve notches with a knife in their 9mm ammo to create their own version of a hollow point round.

Hearing this pissed me off. Our guys deserve better. At least give them good quality 9mm ammo, but better yet go back to letting them use the .45
 
#119 ·
I carry a 40 S&W or 45 ACP. To me, recoil is no different. Even when I'm shooting a G27, I have excellent control.

Then again, shooting 357 magnums from a snubby don't bother me.

There will always be a difference of opinion. To each his or her own. No two people are alike in ability, experience, work ethic, body habitus or temperament. It is why there are so many choices. My first concealed carry was a Glock 23. Loved shooting it from day one. I shoot and carry different guns for different purposes.
 
#122 ·
Just my .02 I happen to like 40 it has its downsides several mention recoil however its got many advantages. One it has on 9 is 9mm if it doesnt expand is only .355 to reach this .40 must shrink ive yet to see any round that stayed together do that. So I beleave there is a advantage on 9. In 45 you get a shallower grip which in double stack adds to control therefore accuracy. It also has greater capacity and in a perfect world one shots always enough but in our world wolves travel in packs.. In single stack I find I have other rounds I choose bit in double its hard to beat.
 
#135 ·
Please don't take this wrong, I'm not trying to sound like a smart aleck here, but I believe the 10mm was first developed, then the .40 was developed later when it was found that the ballistics of the downloaded FBI 10mm load could be had in beefed-up 9mm pistols by shortening the 10's case length and raising the pressure a bit.

My .02: I don't think that the .40 is being beat up, unless being "beat up" equals the .40 not being embraced by the rest of the world as it has been with law enforcement in the U.S. and Canada.

What it seems like has happened to the .40 is that the "honeymoon is over". Back in the 1990s, it was the "hot gun you just had to have", and the "new wonder caliber" and law enforcement couldn't get them fast enough. Now that the caliber has been around for over twenty years (yes, it has been that long), I suppose there's a pretty large base of information about how the round performs in the real world. Therefore, I think people have more realistic notions about what it can and cannot do, and they choose or reject it accordingly.

I would say that the .40 S&W is pretty firmly entrenched as the dominant law enforcement cartridge in the United States. I don't see the other popular LE cartridges changing that anytime soon. (and I'm not a fanboy, the round has strenghts and limitations aplenty). As far as the .40 being most popular with armed citizens, I have no idea, but I would imagine that the 9 is gaining ground with them simply due to compact pistols and cheaper ammo.
 
#127 ·
Food for thought.... Click on the image to view....

View attachment 61032
The only "food for thought" here is that you can't believe everything you see on the Internet. The drawing is NOT to scale, therefore it is deliberately misleading.

Regards,
Jim
 
#137 ·
I have to agree with the OP. I like the .40. Of my normal carry guns, 2 are .40's and one is a 9mm. So I can say I like the .40 round.

I think it does a very good job of being a self defense round. I think the 9mm is a good SD round as well. The .45 is also. It all comes down to what round you shoot more accurately and can achieve high hit percentages with.
 
#138 ·
I can tell you one thing that the .40 seems to excel at here where I live: Ammo availability.

Every time I go to Wal Mart, they are out of 9mm and .357 Sig but have plenty of .40 S&W. I need to go online and find some 9mm ammo for my LC9 before it starves. I can always get .40 there for the Glock.
 
#140 ·
It's my primary carry caliber. It was designed as a "service caliber" from the ground up. I lot of police agencies have migrated to the 357 sig for the sole purpose of penetrating windshields and car doors (sometimes the .40s would deflect). For the average CC holder I doubt that would ever be an issue and the one shot stops actually favor the .40 in the 155 gr and 165 gr varieties over the 357 sig. To me its the ultimate "compromise caliber". Capacity close to a 9 mm and stopping power close to a .45. Truly a utilitarian caliber in my humble opinion. Plus you can get a 357 sig barrel in most guns and have another caliber for less than $200.
 
#143 ·
The .41 Long Colt which is also actually a .40/10mm round came out in 1877 in the Colt "Thunderer" double action revolver.

The .38-40, originally called the .38 WCF, was a true .40/10mm cartridge originating in 1879 as a rifle cartridge offering for the Winchester Model 1873 but appearing in the Colt Single Action Army within about 3 years.
 
#145 ·
Well... I took the plunge and got my hands on a Ruger SR40. I was a "forty" shooter many years ago (I had the first Glock 22 .40 S&W in my town) and decided it was time to jump on the band wagon.
Man, it sure looks bigger than I remembered! Taking it to the range this week to break it in, wish me luck!
 
#147 ·
I love my G23 in .40 and wouldnt trade it for anything. I've fired .45s, .357s, 9mm and .38s and I can't see moving away from the .40. People bash my .380 more than my .40 after they fire both but I think that's just them not being prepared for such a small gun (LCP) to actually have some ummph behind it.
 
#148 ·
I love the Performance of the .40 as well, I would never get rid of my G23 and 27, I think its a all around great round and very much a workhorse in most Police Depts, as for me though my work horse is a G30SF... .45ACP... in the .40 with good ammo as with the Federal HST, Ranger T's and GoldDots you get great stopping power and excellet expansion and penetration...
 
#150 ·
I'm not a fan of it because penetration wise, it's similar to a 9mm, and does kick harder. it's not uncomf, but followups are slower. Yes it does have a bigger temp cavity, but it has been found that pistol calibers don't make big enough of a temp cavity to make the diff. so penetration becomes important. a 147gr quality bullet penetrates rough same as the 180. 165gr .40 is very close to a 124gr 9mm

so that being said I would prefer to have a 9mm.

now the heavier weight supposedly does carry better through barriers. which is great for LE.

and lastly, I just bought a MP40... go figure. lol

I shot the MP40 right after I bought it, and I must say recoil wasn't too bad. it kicked, but not horrible... then I shot a mp9pro right after, and it shot so smooth and very little recoil. I was able to do follow ups much quicker. this is great for a moving target.

I will be buying the 40>9mm conversion barrel and probably just shoot whatever I get my hands on. I always thought .40 was more money, and it's such a little difference. (like couple bucks) and .40 is easier to find as well

I just ordered 2 boxes of critical duty for my MP40, and will be doing the same for my MP9c and keltec PF9
 
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