Why Is the .40 S&W So Beat Up On These Days?

This is a discussion on Why Is the .40 S&W So Beat Up On These Days? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by JohnLeVick As to bullet diameter, the difference between .40 and 9x19 is much less than between .45 and .40. Not so. Let's ...

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Thread: Why Is the .40 S&W So Beat Up On These Days?

  1. #76
    Ex Member Array oldrwizr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnLeVick View Post
    As to bullet diameter, the difference between .40 and 9x19 is much less than between .45 and .40.
    Not so. Let's do some math. 9mm = .354 cal. Going from .354 to .40 is an increase of 13%. Going from .40 to .45 is an increase of 12 1/2%. So change "much less" to "slightly more" and I'll leave you alone.

    This is to all .40S&W bashers: I've had my G23 (compact) for a few months and have gotten better at the range as you would expect but I'm still no Top Shot. In fact, I pretty much suck in terms of where I want to be. I was starting to think maybe all the .40-bashers were right, that I'd made a poor handgun decision. Then a friend of the family who happens to be a very experienced, competitive shooter (of rifles, but still) wanted to try my gun, saying he always wanted to shoot the .40 but never had. On his first rack of 13 rounds, he ripped the center out of a paper plate (we have a home range) from 30'. First try. 30-40 mags later I've only matched that performance once or twice, but at least I know that as with any other skilled pursuit, it ain't the gun. It's the gunner.

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  3. #77
    Senior Member Array Chesafreak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Yes, but its not an Auto Rim.
    Right. The auto rim is only needed to fire in typical revolvers. Charter Arms has a new cylinder design that negates the need for auto rim. Standard .40 S&W rounds work just fine. Why design a new cartridge, the .40 auto rim, if modern revolvers can accept .40 S&W as is?
    "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery." - Thomas Jefferson

  4. #78
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chesafreak View Post
    Right. The auto rim is only needed to fire in typical revolvers. Charter Arms has a new cylinder design that negates the need for auto rim. Standard .40 S&W rounds work just fine. Why design a new cartridge, the .40 auto rim, if modern revolvers can accept .40 S&W as is?
    Charter Arms had issues with the design of it's revolver. The strong point of a revolver in the first place is simplicity. CA's revolver involves a more complicated system, which is, IMO, more potentially problematic than using moon clips would be.An auto rim would allow the simplicity of the revolver without the extra springs used in the more complex CA design.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  5. #79
    Senior Member Array Chesafreak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Charter Arms had issues with the design of it's revolver. The strong point of a revolver in the first place is simplicity. CA's revolver involves a more complicated system, which is, IMO, more potentially problematic than using moon clips would be.An auto rim would allow the simplicity of the revolver without the extra springs used in the more complex CA design.
    I think it would be more likely that CA will work out any design problems with the Pit Bull in .40 than the prospect of market success with creating a new cartridge in .40 auto rim. At least the Pit Bull is already on the market. Can't say the same thing for the .40 auto rim. I googled it and it looks like it doesn't exist. I also googled for problems/issues with the .40 Pit Bull and didn't find any.

    I can't say I would buy one at the suggested MSRP. If I could get one for $350 I would be interested.
    "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery." - Thomas Jefferson

  6. #80
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I could have told you it didn't exist. What was posted by LouisianaMan and myself was basically thinking out loud.

    As far as problems with the CA, a female officer I work with purchased one. Loading it is somewhat difficult due to spring tensions, also extraction is not clean.

    I don't think there are that many being sold as to really have enough intel about issues on the net.
    But it just being a CA turns off alot of revolver guys anyway.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  7. #81
    Senior Member Array IAm_Not_Lost's Avatar
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    I jumped into this late, and have not read much of the thread, but...I didn't know the .40 was being beat up on. I shoot the 9mm just because it's a little bit cheaper, I don't carry it and shoot it because I think it's the end all man stopper. If I was a law enforcement officer and actively putting myself in dangerous situations, as our excellent LEO's do, I would carry the .40. That said, for my purposes I am content with my 9mm's.
    "Brilliant. So now we got a huge guy theory, and a serial crusher theory. Top notch. What's your name?" - Paul Smecker

  8. #82
    Senior Member Array hayzor's Avatar
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    I'm not convinced that there is any practical difference in the 40 over the 9mm for real world self defense.
    If one wants reduced capacity and to pay more for ammo - go ahead. Its America and we have many choices, which I support.
    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it. Albert Einstein

    "People in Arizona carry guns," said a Chandler police spokesman. "You better be careful about who you are picking on."

  9. #83
    VIP Member Array Smitty901's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hayzor View Post
    I'm not convinced that there is any practical difference in the 40 over the 9mm for real world self defense.
    If one wants reduced capacity and to pay more for ammo - go ahead. Its America and we have many choices, which I support.
    Pretty much agree with that.
    The 40 was rolled out as the greatest thing sense the .45 when compared to the 9mm. 9mm had a poor prep for some time mostly because of the rounds Police were using in them and poor marksmanship. Some how the 40 was suppose to drop in over night and cure that. Did not happen. After the hype is over and a products does not take off what happens, people fall back to other things that worked well and/or cost them less. In this case the 9mm, the rounds got better the choices in rounds got smarter and the weapons got better.
    Nothing wrong with a 40. Just never was the block buster it was billed as.

  10. #84
    Senior Member Array JohnLeVick's Avatar
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    Oldrwizr, not to quibble, but using actual bore diameters, .40-.355=.045. .452-.40=.052 "Much" vs. "slightly" is probably irrelevant here, I concede, but so especially are percentages, and last I checked, 52 is more than 45.

    And I hope I didn't impress anyone as a ".40 basher." I think it's a grand cartridge, but it has its own little flaws, as do most other rounds.

  11. #85
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnLeVick View Post
    Oldrwizr, not to quibble, but using actual bore diameters, .40-.355=.045. .452-.40=.052 "Much" vs. "slightly" is probably irrelevant here, I concede, but so especially are percentages, and last I checked, 52 is more than 45.

    And I hope I didn't impress anyone as a ".40 basher." I think it's a grand cartridge, but it has its own little flaws, as do most other rounds.
    Of course its better in its necked down version, right John?
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  12. #86
    VIP Member Array 40Bob's Avatar
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    I have been seeing Law Enforcement agencies moving towards the 357 Sig. It may well be that the 357 Sig is what the 40 should have been. Texas DPS is VERY happy with the 357 Sig.

  13. #87
    Senior Member Array JohnLeVick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Of course its better in its necked down version, right John?
    Yep.

  14. #88
    Senior Member Array Chesafreak's Avatar
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    I was just reading some different interpretations of the FBI terminal ballistics testing data posted at Interpretation of FBI gelatin tests .

    The page has some links to the data sorted for different criteria, including: kinetic energy, momentum, penetration depth, and wound volume.

    Sorted by ke: The top .40 load comes in at 7th place, The top 9mm comes in at 17th place.
    Sorted by momentum: The top .40 caliber comes in at 23rd place, while the top 9mm load is at 61st place.
    Sorted by average wound volume in clothed and bare gelatin: The top .40 comes in at 5th place, the top 9mm round comes in at 31st place.

    Of course the 10mm and .45, (and occasionally the .357 Sig) beat both the .40 S&W and 9mm in every category.

    For the 9mm crowd:
    An individual has to choose the most effective defense package, taking into account both the expected terminal ballistics of the round and caliber he chooses and how well he shoots that pistol and ammunition combination. For example, if a person were trying to decide between shooting 9x19 or .40SW, he might:

    from a holster, at 7 yards,
    shoot ten rounds into an NRA-type pistol target as quickly as possible,
    do this for both pistols, and
    score the targets, scale the score to percent,
    multiply the FBI wound volume for each round by the target's score, and
    divide that by the time it took to shoot the rounds, starting from the holster.
    This kind of a calculation is going to yield something like total wound volume (in cubic inches) per second. It will take into account if a person is slower and less accurate with a certain pistol and caliber, and it will take into account the terminal ballistics of the round.

    The pistol and caliber with the highest score wins.
    IMO, I would rather practice with a larger caliber to get faster times and more accurate than to downgrade so far down in the rankings because of recoil.
    "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery." - Thomas Jefferson

  15. #89
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chesafreak View Post
    I was just reading some different interpretations of the FBI terminal ballistics testing data posted at Interpretation of FBI gelatin tests .

    The page has some links to the data sorted for different criteria, including: kinetic energy, momentum, penetration depth, and wound volume.

    Sorted by ke: The top .40 load comes in at 7th place, The top 9mm comes in at 17th place.
    Sorted by momentum: The top .40 caliber comes in at 23rd place, while the top 9mm load is at 61st place.
    Sorted by average wound volume in clothed and bare gelatin: The top .40 comes in at 5th place, the top 9mm round comes in at 31st place.

    Of course the 10mm and .45, (and occasionally the .357 Sig) beat both the .40 S&W and 9mm in every category.

    For the 9mm crowd:


    IMO, I would rather practice with a larger caliber to get faster times and more accurate than to downgrade so far down in the rankings because of recoil.
    Nothing wrong with using bigger caliber, I like them. However, I dont put much into lab test. Apparently the flesh of this deer didnt get the memo that a single 9mm bullet wasnt adequate.


    Or this one didnt know an FMJ 230 weight 45 wasnt supposed to do so much damage



    So much for the FBI conclusive jello testing.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  16. #90
    Senior Member Array Chesafreak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Nothing wrong with using bigger caliber, I like them. However, I dont put much into lab test. Apparently the flesh of this deer didnt get the memo that a single 9mm bullet wasnt adequate.


    Or this one didnt know an FMJ 230 weight 45 wasnt supposed to do so much damage



    So much for the FBI conclusive jello testing.
    Good shot placement! Your pictures don't prove that the FBI data is meaningless. All they prove is that you're a good shot. A 22 LR or WMR in the right place could kill as well. Until someone offers proof that the FBI data is flawed, I will continue to trust it.
    "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery." - Thomas Jefferson

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