Why Is the .40 S&W So Beat Up On These Days?

This is a discussion on Why Is the .40 S&W So Beat Up On These Days? within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Kilowatt3 By this simple paradigm, a 2" Airweight .38 Special has more "oomph going downrange" than a 6" Trooper shooting full-house .357's, ...

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Thread: Why Is the .40 S&W So Beat Up On These Days?

  1. #106
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilowatt3 View Post
    By this simple paradigm, a 2" Airweight .38 Special has more "oomph going downrange" than a 6" Trooper shooting full-house .357's, and my 2-3/4" .357 Security-Six has more "oomph going downrange" than my 8" Dan Wesson .44 Mag.

    It would also suggest that a compact .40 has more "oomph going downrange" than a similarly-sized .45ACP.

    It's not that simple.

    Regards,
    Jim
    Of course it's not literally that simple. But I'm much more comfortable with my choice of a Glock 23 over a similarly sized Glock 19 because I personally think muzzle energy matters.
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  3. #107
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowflyer View Post
    Okay, I have heard about this "bulge" for years and have been reloading my Glock brass for several months now and I have not encountered this bulge. What am I doing wrong? My Glock-fired brass resizes just like any other brass and it cycles through my gun without any problems.
    Maybe yours is " special". Have you measured the base compared to virgin brass?
    And of course it feeds and cycles well in your gun, it's the same chamber that originally fired it.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  4. #108
    Member Array WillyNilly's Avatar
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    I have a 9mm with a 4" barrel and a 40sw with a 3.9" barrel. Since they're both high pressure rounds they got some kick to 'em but the 40 is more so and not too much. Both of mine are loaded with PDX1s and this is from Ballistic 101 site. Pretty close in velocity but 80 lbs difference.

    9mm PDX1 124+P 396 1180

    40 SW PDX1 165 476 1140

    I like the 40.

  5. #109
    Senior Member Array 45ACP4ever's Avatar
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    I'm not a fan of the .40, but I have nothing against it. I just think that 9x19 works well with good ammo while providing more rounds in the weapon and less recoil, not to mention literally more bang for your buck.
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  6. #110
    Ex Member Array CharlesMorri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterB View Post
    Was that how it went? I'd have to brush up on my history, but it seems like I remember hearing that the .40 was adopted because the FBI was using 10mm (which is essentially a longer casing version of the .40), which made the grip of the gun larger to accommodate the 10mm round, and it was therefore hard for female agents and smaller male agents to handle properly.
    Sorry, I gave a condensed version. It was the ten mm that was first adopted but it proved to be to powerful for most agents. They where issued the S+W 1076, shooting full bore loads. Those were the 200grn Norma(?) loads.
    That and the guns sucked, decock versions, bobbed (concealed) hammers and to big.

  7. #111
    VIP Member Array NY27's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesMorri View Post
    Don't forget, the .40cal was developed because of the "dismal failure" of the 9mm during the FBI encounter with Mike Platt in Florida back in "86".
    The 9mm has come a long way since then and we now have multiple loads that improve the 9mm to performance levels never thought possible back then.
    Quote Originally Posted by MisterB View Post
    Was that how it went? I'd have to brush up on my history, but it seems like I remember hearing that the .40 was adopted because the FBI was using 10mm (which is essentially a longer casing version of the .40), which made the grip of the gun larger to accommodate the 10mm round, and it was therefore hard for female agents and smaller male agents to handle properly.
    You're both right. The FBI thought that the 9mm was the cause of the agent's deaths in the Miami Shootout. It was actually shot placement and the poor choice of 9mm design. Things may have been different with a better designed 9mm. In any event, they went to work on a larger caliber and adopted the 10mm. But it proved to be too big of a sidearm for most female agents and male agents with small hands. So, in comes the .40SW which is a larger caliber that can fit in a 9mm sized frame.

    As to the OP. I like the .40SW. It is my duty caliber. I carry a Glock 23 at work and two of my off duty weapons are a G27 and a G22. I know, I know, the G22 should be my duty weapon. I argued that point when we transitioned from Gen 2's to Gen 3's. Obviously administration won. So My wife bought me a G22 for our 10 year wedding anniversary :)

    I put on some Trijicon HD night sights (orange front sight). They have a larger "U" shaped rear notch and allow a little more light around the front sight. I love these sights on a great weapon in a great caliber. The G22 performed as expected at ranges of 3-15 yards. I backed up to the 50 yard line and still had a 5 shot group with the 2 furthest being inside 10" COM and the other 3 grouped nicely in the middle at about 4".

    I carry 9,40 and 45 without reservation. I love them all and they will all do their job if I do mine. I have a 26 and a 27 that I carry too. In the subcompacts, I do get much faster follow up shots that are TIGHTLY grouped with the 9mm. But the .40 is nothing to sneeze at. If I shoot it as fast as the 9, the groups open up a bit, but they are well within "combact effective hit" range.

    I like the .40 and plan on keeping them in my line up.
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  8. #112
    Member Array bodhisattvya's Avatar
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    "Our troops in Iraq are reporting that when using the 9mm Berettas, three or four hits to the chest are required to stop attackers."


    What Dr. Piazza fails to take into account is that our troops overseas are using 9mm ball ammunition as prescribed by the Geneva Convention, not modern designed defensive JHP's. He's making an apples to oranges
    comparison.

  9. #113
    VIP Member Array Kilowatt3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bodhisattvya View Post
    "Our troops in Iraq are reporting that when using the 9mm Berettas, three or four hits to the chest are required to stop attackers."

    What Dr. Piazza fails to take into account is that our troops overseas are using 9mm ball ammunition as prescribed by the Geneva Convention, not modern designed defensive JHP's. He's making an apples to oranges comparison.
    That would be the Hague Conference, not the Geneva Convention.

    It does not actually prescribe the use of ball ammo, but rather prohibits "the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body."

    Regards,
    Jim

  10. #114
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    Call me crazy but I personaly find the 9 to be more snappy than 40. Ive tried most of the rentals my range has to offer and I kept going back to 40. I am most accurate with it and that is comparing with a variety of pistols in .38, .357, .9, .40 and .45. There is plain and simple no reason I should be carrying something I am less efficient with.

    My best shooting in .40 is with a full size HK USP but I just dont have that kind of money. I will be honest I can outshoot that with a .45 in a Wilson Combat 1911 but if I cant afford the USP then I sure cant afford a WC.

  11. #115
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    You are crazy Ionracas, but we all have our opinions and there's nothing wrong with that.
    Why?? Because at the last second, the Police are minutes away.

  12. #116
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    OK let me get this straight.
    1. If I shot into gelatin that replicates human muscle how does that not reflect shooting humans into muscle? Is the human magically different than it’s simulated gel?
    2. If I shot through clothed gelatin how is that different than shooting humans through their clothes?
    3. If I shot through barriers into gelatin how is that different than shooting humans through barriers?
    Bullet performance is bullet performance the difference is how did it hit the target, through what, and what did it do while in the body?
    During testing the bullets are put under the same exact protocol. In the real world they are not. The only real comparisons that can be made for real world shootings are those that meet the same exacting protocol. Not he was shot once somewhere in the center of mass. I want to know the distance, angle, type of barrier/cover if any, exact shot placement on the body, what the bullet hit on the way through (ie organs, bones), if it expanded, and where the bullet laid to rest. Not knowing these variables in real world shootings makes one stop shots amusing at best, but irrelevant in the world of cartridge performance.
    The only way to ensure a bullet can effectively perform through ALL variables is by maximizing all four variables; speed, weight, diameter, and bullet construction. If you plan to use an inferior/marginal/ adequate bullet and make up for it in quantity of bullets on target or quality of shot placement, then so be it. But don’t pretend a 9mm can penetrate through a barrier and still have enough performance left in it to cause life threatening injuries. . I think that is the real point of the matter. If we stand toe to toe and shoot it out in the same exact manner, we pretty much get the same result. In the real world of bullets not expanding, shooting at angles and through stuff that is not optimal, and only 30% of all shots hitting their intended target you need to make every shot count.

  13. #117
    VIP Member Array Kilowatt3's Avatar
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    "Our troops in Iraq are reporting that when using the 9mm Berettas, three or four hits to the chest are required to stop attackers."

    This really runs the ol' BS flag up the pole. Wonder how many of our troops in Iraq are actually engaging the enemy with their 9mm's? Can he name one, and give details of the engagement?

    If they are, then why? Our guys have all manner of CQB weapons - M4, P90, MP5, UMP, etc., that are far more effective than a sidearm. If a guy's down to dropping an enemy with his Beretta, something has gone bad wrong, tactically. Not saying it doesn't happen, but trying to make it sound commonplace is just baloney.

    Regards,
    Jim

  14. #118
    Member Array MisterB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kilowatt3 View Post
    "Our troops in Iraq are reporting that when using the 9mm Berettas, three or four hits to the chest are required to stop attackers."

    This really runs the ol' BS flag up the pole. Wonder how many of our troops in Iraq are actually engaging the enemy with their 9mm's? Can he name one, and give details of the engagement?

    If they are, then why? Our guys have all manner of CQB weapons - M4, P90, MP5, UMP, etc., that are far more effective than a sidearm. If a guy's down to dropping an enemy with his Beretta, something has gone bad wrong, tactically. Not saying it doesn't happen, but trying to make it sound commonplace is just baloney.

    Regards,
    Jim
    Actually, it's not too far off, according to my active military buddy that did two tours in Iraq, and has a purple heart. Gotta remember that they are issued regular ball ammo. They don't get the good +p hollow point ammo that you and I can buy at the gun store. He said soldiers will carve notches with a knife in their 9mm ammo to create their own version of a hollow point round.

    Hearing this pissed me off. Our guys deserve better. At least give them good quality 9mm ammo, but better yet go back to letting them use the .45

  15. #119
    Member Array CDRGlock's Avatar
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    I carry a 40 S&W or 45 ACP. To me, recoil is no different. Even when I'm shooting a G27, I have excellent control.

    Then again, shooting 357 magnums from a snubby don't bother me.

    There will always be a difference of opinion. To each his or her own. No two people are alike in ability, experience, work ethic, body habitus or temperament. It is why there are so many choices. My first concealed carry was a Glock 23. Loved shooting it from day one. I shoot and carry different guns for different purposes.
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  16. #120
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    Shoot what you want. It's still a free country last time I checked.
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    -Thomas Jefferson
    "The Constitution shall never be construed ... to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."**
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