Winchester Silver Tip Hollow Point for self defense

This is a discussion on Winchester Silver Tip Hollow Point for self defense within the Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In my opinion, LE does not put enough focus on shooting. Most of the qualifications are for legal purposes to be able to say that ...

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Thread: Winchester Silver Tip Hollow Point for self defense

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    In my opinion, LE does not put enough focus on shooting. Most of the qualifications are for legal purposes to be able to say that you were qualified according to a set standard.

    And no wonder. LE has become alot of social work over the years, with training time diverted to other subjects of modern enforcement criteria. It is just the way it has become.

    Also over the years, the HP round has been used for the purposes of reducing the thru and thru shots that may injure a bystander. But once again, I consider this more a precautionary measure against law suits than a real need, and believe it to be much over rated.

    Additionally, with the trend toward smaller calibers with higher capacity, the expansion of a smaller bullet is in reality an attempt to make it behave like a big one. But with the laws in place that require people to be hired even if they are not really able to perform the job, then the tools or standards are dropped to accommodate everyone. So a smaller caliber means smaller gun for an overall one size fits all type system.

    Another thing about HP designs, is that they are less likely to ricochet because they collapse or deform more readily upon impact with a hard surface in case of errant shots. This effectively slows it down, reduces it's coeffiecncy and thereby minimizes it's damage to non targets that it may strike.

    But the stopping power or simple expansion of a bullet, is not a magical formula for effectiveness.
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    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Blades, maybe you are right. Maybe if I did more shooting I would actually learn something, lol.

    But you see, I have only been on this forum for 2 maybe 3 years. And, it's the first forum I ever joined, or participated in. Maybe it is because, I have spent 30 something years traveling, and shooting big game and more shooting, and more experimenting, just so I can come here and learn stuff from guys like you?
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  4. #33
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    "Yes it is nice getting off the merry-go-round, just find your caliber on THIS LIST, check some prices and buy it. There, done. "


    Hi Blades;

    Why is that list the default authority? It's not important to me to find my choice on that list. It's a fine list for those who choose to believe its validity.

    If the prices were close to the same would you buy a bullet that expands 70% of the time or one that expands 95% of the time?

    I'd chose the lead semi-wadcutter no matter the cost or what test results reveal. I've used the SWC bullet design in several handgun cartridges for handgun hunting and for varmint control and I like what I've been able to observe. Expansion isn't the do-all and end-all in my opinion. You are entitled to your opinion as well.

    To put this thread back on track: Has there been anything published to indicate that the Winchester Silvertip design has been improved since it was first marketed or is it the same bullet?
    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

  5. #34
    Member Array Fisher10's Avatar
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    The lead semi-wad cutter hollow point is one bullet that works for revolvers, specifically the lower velocity .38. There just isn't anything wrong with it assuming it will expand reliably. Federal's Nyclad is a great load. For DUTY guns in modern duty calibers (9, 40, 45, etc...) I stand by my statement.

    I am not trying to say if ammo doesn't have nickle cases it isn't going to work, but I'm sure you understand the advantages that come with nickle plated cases. For what looks like the same JHP bullet used in WWB, they charge a premium for the silver colored jacket and they do not load the bullets in nickle plated cases. How much more could it cost Winchester to do that? Maybe they use plain brass so it doesn't cause people to think Silvertips are a premium SD load.

    I'm not saying one bullet design won't work at all while another will. I just don't understand why someone would use an inferior load when a superior, proven load is available for the same cost. The only differences I can find between Silvertips and WWB are Silvertips are slightly faster and have an aluminum alloy jacket.

  6. #35
    Member Array Blades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    But the stopping power or simple expansion of a bullet, is not a magical formula for effectiveness.
    That's true. Especially handgun ammo.

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Blades, maybe you are right. Maybe if I did more shooting I would actually learn something, lol.

    But you see, I have only been on this forum for 2 maybe 3 years. And, it's the first forum I ever joined, or participated in. Maybe it is because, I have spent 30 something years traveling, and shooting big game and more shooting, and more experimenting, just so I can come here and learn stuff from guys like you?
    Naaa, you won't learn anything from me, no worries there, but you can learn something new every day and should be open to improvements/evolution in ammo.
    The first time you went big game hunting did you trust somebody else's opinion in your equipment choices?

    Your right, if I knew I was 100% accurate with a FMJ bullet, and only 80% accurate with a HP, then I would carry FMJ. Shot placement, range time, daily dry-fire practice cannot be replaced with a "magic" bullet or specific caliber. I know that with modern ammo the 9mm is as effective as the .40s&w, .357Sig, .357magnum, and .45acp(also .45gap), but I carry a .45acp Glock 30sf because I am going to assume my "magic bullet" will not expand, and if it doesn't, I want a big hole left behind. My logic may be flawed, but after reading/studying/shooting over the years I don't trust a little piece of metal to stop anybody or anything.


    If I ever get to Kentucky or if you get to North Carolina, we need to get together and have a meal.
    --Jason--

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Jason, I'll gladly buy you dinner and a drink if you like! You are right about learning something new everyday. And after conversing with you I have learned you seem to have a good head on your shoulders with alot of potential.
    Come on up and we will find some " live medium" to test bullet performance in:)
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  8. #37
    Member Array Blades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    "Yes it is nice getting off the merry-go-round, just find your caliber on THIS LIST, check some prices and buy it. There, done. "


    Hi Blades;

    Why is that list the default authority? It's not important to me to find my choice on that list. It's a fine list for those who choose to believe its validity.

    If the prices were close to the same would you buy a bullet that expands 70% of the time or one that expands 95% of the time?

    I'd chose the lead semi-wadcutter no matter the cost or what test results reveal. I've used the SWC bullet design in several handgun cartridges for handgun hunting and for varmint control and I like what I've been able to observe. Expansion isn't the do-all and end-all in my opinion. You are entitled to your opinion as well.

    To put this thread back on track: Has there been anything published to indicate that the Winchester Silvertip design has been improved since it was first marketed or is it the same bullet?

    I like the LIST because it gives me something to "go to", something that a person on the internet can read, and if so inclined, read the background information to learn more. This is the first paragraph:
    This document compiles the current state-of-the-art of the best choices available for self-defense ammunition. It includes a scientific background as to the selection criteria that is used to determine the choices presented. Data is provided for common handgun and rifle ammunition, and a small section on shotgun ammunition. Please read the entire document and familiarize yourself with the background information. The choices presented will then make much more sense

    You have to pick something to gamble your life on, you picked SWC for two-legged varmints, and I picked quality HP's, and I think we both understand that shot placement is more important then bullet choices.
    --Jason--

  9. #38
    Member Array Fisher10's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I am just curious as to those of you who deem the " old school" lead style bullets inferior to the latest and greatest for SD, to please explain your opinion. Exactly what do you base this great wisdom on that you impart on the lesser knowledgeable of us.
    Certainly. I would be my pleasure to share my simple opinion with you, good kind sir.

    -OLD SCHOOL- .38 Long Colt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The .38 special was an improvement over this caliber, but they are both very similar and were both loaded with LRN bullets at about the same velocity. In the article, it describes the shortcomings of the LRN bullet, specifically in battle. In the 20's, Winchester released a 200gr LRN load for law enforcement use. The bullet was more likely to tumble on impact, causing more tissue disruption and improved terminal effects than a lighter LRN bullet that would pencil through a body. This is an early example of an ammunition manufacturer offering a bullet design that had improved terminal ballistics over the previous offerings. Several decades later, manufacturers spent a lot of time researching and developing rounds that offer improved terminal ballistics over their predecessors.

    -New School- Now we have jacketed, expanding loads. When a JHP which retains it's weight well hits something like a car door, the hollow cavity collapses and offers deep, FMJ like penetration but when hitting flesh, expands and expends most of it's energy into the target. It makes sense, or is wise to use a load that reliably offers expansion and reasonable penetration. Modern premium loads like Speer's Gold dot or Federal's HST do both very well. Now, because of new technologies and designs (which unfortunately tend to cost more than a LRN bullet), smaller calibers can be as effective or more effective than larger calibers 80 years ago.

    Here is a simple example of old school vs newer school. You can see a visual difference in the terminal effects.
    .45 ACP 230gr FMJ: 45ACP CCI Blazer 230gr FMJ impacting ballistic gelatin - YouTube
    .45 ACP 230gr JHP: SLOW MOTION 45ACP Federal 230gr Hydra-Shok impacting ballistic gelatin - YouTube

  10. #39
    Member Array Blades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Jason, I'll gladly buy you dinner and a drink if you like! You are right about learning something new everyday. And after conversing with you I have learned you seem to have a good head on your shoulders with alot of potential.
    Come on up and we will find some " live medium" to test bullet performance in:)
    Sounds good.
    --Jason--

  11. #40
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    This could be a fun discussion for all concerned. Let's open up a new thread for the Old School/New School debate.
    “No possible rapidity of fire can atone for habitual carelessness of aim with the first shot.”

    Theodore Roosevelt, The Wilderness Hunter, 1893

  12. #41
    sgb
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    Why are these choices "much" better?

    More consistent penetration and expansion. Being a Jello Junkie I tend to put more faith in the PROFESSIONALLY controlled testing of ammunition than I do Billy Bobs anecdotal stories of all the critters he's kilt.

    I've carried the Silver tip as well as the Hydra-Shock when they were the newest/bestest loads on the street and have observed failure to expand as well as jacket separation with both. Ammunition design has come a long way since the '80's and the HST, RANGER T and GOLD DOT ain't our grandpa's JHP. Just my .02 as what anyone carries is possibly skin off their nose not mine.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

    Best Choices for Self Defense Ammunition

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    More consistent penetration and expansion. Being a Jello Junkie I tend to put more faith in the PROFESSIONALLY controlled testing of ammunition than I do Billy Bobs anecdotal stories of all the critters he's kilt.

    I've carried the Silver tip as well as the Hydra-Shock when they were the newest/bestest loads on the street and have observed failure to expand as well as jacket separation with both. Ammunition design has come a long way since the '80's and the HST, RANGER T and GOLD DOT ain't our grandpa's JHP. Just my .02 as what anyone carries is possibly skin off their nose not mine.
    And what makes you think they are more consistent? As a "Billy Bob" I can tell you that you are getting ripped off when you place faith in these bullets to perform in real flesh.

    And killing animals whether you WANT to admit it or not, is a much more realistic approach to seeing how your favorite bullet performs that gelatin testing. Real bone and flesh representing all the various obstacles for a bullet tell much.

    But I'll not share the details of what I have seen, or show pictures of the recent batch of modern expensive " lab tested" bullets that failed miserably. Some people will not see anything, even if it's put before their eyes.
    So in this I agree, no sweat off me.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  14. #43
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmcgilvray View Post
    This could be a fun discussion for all concerned. Let's open up a new thread for the Old School/New School debate.
    The only problem is, that while we could prove once and for all that the older lead is a more consistent performer thru practical field testing of both, the proponents of the new stuff have only lab tests and gelatin testing to rely on for validation.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    The only problem is, that while we could prove once and for all that the older lead is a more consistent performer thru practical field testing of both, the proponents of the new stuff have only lab tests and gelatin testing to rely on for validation.
    I would love to load up with cheaper lead bullets, but last I heard you weren't supposed to shoot unjacketed ammo out of a Glock. Is that true? I don't own any revolvers, only a Glock 23 and an LC9. I don't think I'm supposed to shoot plain lead out of either.
    "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery." - Thomas Jefferson

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    Just a personal, first-hand, anecdotal experience with the Sivlertip, and why I don't care for them, at least in .45...and I can't say I've ever bought them in any other caliber.

    I live in a rural area; people seem to think it's a perfect place to drop off unwanted pets. Most of the time, they're scared, hungry, and happy when they get a quick meal and a trip to the local animal shelter.

    Most of the time.

    Sometimes, though...they aren't very friendly.

    A while back, I came home to find a large, what I think was some type of Rottweiler cross (based on coloration and general shape) that had my springer spaniel cornered in her house; fortunately, the rott couldn't get through the door, but he had physically moved the doghouse about ten feet...I took my USP45, loaded with the 185gr Silvertip, and moved to get a clear shot...rott saw me, and obviously decided I was a better game than my dog.

    My first shot was just about 15 or so yards, and hit it in the shoulder from an oblique angle...it stumbled, but did not go down. 3 more follow ups to the chest stopped it, about ten feet away...and the fifth coup de grace to the head ended it.

    The first round, into the shoulder, should have anchored it. It didn't, I discovered, because the bullet fragmented to hell and breakfast, with the largest part stopping inside the skin on the off side of the leg.

    None of the rounds to the chest exited either. I didn't go after them, though.

    This soured me on the round.

    I later had to dispatch another large dog, using a Hydrashock...that did considerably better.

    Personally, I like "The List". The science behind it is solid; I tend to choose ones off it for most of my pistols...however, I'm also perfectly happy with running the good ol' FBI load in my revolvers, as well.
    There are no dangerous weapons; there are only dangerous men.--RAH

    ...man fights with his mind; the weapons are incidental.--Jeff Cooper


    There is a reason they try and make small bullets act like big bullets--Glockmann10mm

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